Independent 8,815 by Nimrod

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What you always get with Nimrod, although I must admit that I tend not to do his crosswords nowadays since they are so difficult and I also usually end up being a bit irritated by something, but this time I had to see it through: quite extraordinarily difficult, for some reason, but some imaginative and brilliant clues.

This puzzle had a rather strange grid, which suggests that it was like this for a reason, but that reason is beyond me. Perhaps it was just because Nimrod didn’t want to go down the evil path of having less than 50% checking.

Definitions underlined.

Across

1 Correspondent fed back through the vital E region (8)
RELATIVE
Reverse hidden in thE VITAL E Region
5,10 Rare result after five days leaving you dreadfully destitute (4,4)
TIED TEST
(destitute – u)* — u = you, textspeak, something that we must accept nowadays in crosswords I think — test cricket [Thanks Paul A@2]
10 See 5 across
8 Volte-face by Miliband’s intended opposition (8)
DEFIANCE
(Ed)rev. fiancé
11 Acquire the heart of a Vulcan on return journey (3)
COP
The centre of (Spock)rev. — Spock the vulcan in Star Trek
13 I may get depressed if you want to get off again in the morning (6,6)
SNOOZE BUTTON
CD. Many, including Nimrod himself, have tried to convince me that a CD is a valid form of clue, but they have failed. I know CDs are widespread (the new Times Crossword Editor has, to the consternation and heated opposition, with which I agree, of many on the Times for The Times site, increased their number). Why is the usual protocol for clues — two parts, one of them a definition, one of them the wordplay, giving you two ways in to the answer — dropped for the CD and why can’t you have the CD part as a very good definition but also have some wordplay? I prefer to follow Azed, who says “I disapprove of clues which omit any definition of the answer, relying on the ‘Ho-ho’ factor to gloss over this omission …”, and he goes on to say “Clues which consist solely of a punning definition … are equally culpable in this regard, however witty they may be”
14,20 Determined to succeed as baby (6)
COSSET
as = ‘cos, determined = set
20 See 14 across
15 Silver-spoon-weaned triplets onto purees (6,6)
SPOILT ROTTEN
(triplets onto)*, with ‘purees’ the anagram indicator — I can’t find ‘spoilt rotten’ in Chambers or the COD, but no doubt it’s somewhere. My problem with this clue is that the ‘definition’ is not a definition of the answer: of course there may be a link, but they are not the same thing and the whole thing looks like some rather unpleasant form of inverted snobbery
18 Across border current Wet Wet Wet struggling with Pellow finally having left (so a little bird told me) (5-7)
TWEET-TWEETED
Tweed [river, border current] round ({W}et {W}et Wet)*, the removal of the two w’s being enabled by ‘with {Pello}w’ (Marti Pellow their lead singer) — but perhaps I’m missing something because the word ‘Across’ suggests to me that ‘Tweed’ would be in the middle — rather a vague definition, not apparently in the dictionaries, but sort of gettable
21 Not being funny, sausage with top covered in chicken is coming up (2,3,7)
ON THE HORIZON
(Not)* he({c}horizo)n
23 Stick a roundabout where traffic island should be? (3)
ROD
O [a roundabout) in the middle of the road [rd] — what a good clue
26,28 Securing entry somehow, back Anfield fans to go up across country (4,4)
PONY TREK
(entry)* in (Kop)rev. — up refers to up on a horse — no doubt someone will tell me that Kop refers to Anfield fans and not just a part of the ground
28 See 26 across
27 Something needed to muffle one Al Capone (8)
SCARFACE
scarf [= something needed to muffle] ace [= one]
29 Greek king leads revolutionary bands against Italy (8)
LEONIDAS
(leads)* round ‘on I’ — ‘bands’ the containment indicator — another excellent clue

Down

1,25 End-user’s unrefined vulgarity (8)
RUDENESS
(End-user’s)*
25 See 1 down
2,17 Time until one departs? (4,8)
LIFE SENTENCE
Another CD — time as in a prison sentence
17 See 2 down
3 Obsessive tourist clocking up Iberia air-miles on part-exchange? (12)
TRAINSPOTTER
The wordplay leads to “Spain trotter” and ‘on part-exchange’ avoids reference to Spooner, but that’s what it is
4 Comedienne‘s plum deal? (8,4)
VICTORIA WOOD
Victoria [= plum] wood [= deal]
6,24 Did upset rank certainty pushing through, photo evidence shows (8,4)
IDENTITY CARD
(certainty)* in (Did)* — actually this may not be the definition: perhaps it’s just ‘photo evidence’, which would be closer to ‘identity card’ — not sure
24 See 6 down
7 United’s distribution’s useless, cutting efficiency “in the engine room” (8)
DETUNING
(United)* ng [= no good]
9,22 Often shift work, when knocking off early, can work round Britain (3-3)
JOB-HOP
(joh{n} op)round B — john = can — I wonder if Nimrod knew who was going to be blogging this crossword!
22 See 9 down
11 Crown , Cow , Dog & Fox all have one play area (6,6)
CENTRE CIRCLE
All these four words have o in the middle, which can be called a centre circle, a part of a football pitch
12 Sun getting involved with Operation Meddle? (3,4,3,2)
PUT ONE’S OAR IN
(Sun Operation)*
13 Help notes (3)
SOS
2 defs — SOS and the plural of the note ‘so’
16 Kept one’s cards close to be just good enough for raised stakes (5,3)
STOOD PAT
(do)rev. in (stop at) — stakes is the inclusion indicator, do as in “this’ll do” — stop at = close, but I feel very uncomfortable about all this since it seems the definition is really ‘kept one’s cards close’, and probably I have it quite wrong and will be corrected
19 Dirty guy who returned to East End vice haunt (3)
DEN
Dirty Den returned to EastEnders in September 2003, Mr Google tells me
*anagram

28 comments on “Independent 8,815 by Nimrod”

  1. I take back what I said about being on Nimrod’s wavelength these days as I was held up for ages in the NE corner. I did enjoy the struggle and particularly liked 11a and 13d.

    If you ignore the C in Down Row 3 – you get LIFE SENTENCE and similarly ignoring the T in Row 13 produces IDENTITY CARD

    Thanks to Nimrod and John too

  5. My son-in-law, an expert on this, says that the Kop is a place. Those who frequent it are Kopites. BUT the fans who go to away matches are the Travelling Kop, so, on balance, Nimrod is justified.

    My heart sank when I saw the name Nimrod, but I got off to a good start, but then got bogged down, especially in NE. Very challenging clues, as usual, so many thanks, and also to John for teasing it all out.

  6. Re the comment on cryptic definitions (under SNOOZE BUTTON – a fine example of the genre), I think it would a shame to lose these which have been a feature of crosswords from the start, I think, giving great misdirection and amusement. I think they would not be suitable in “advanced” puzzles such as IQ, Listener, EV, Azed however (which are more complex) – just in the daily cryptics. Great care however is needed to ensure a unique answer will fit both clue and crossing letters.

  7. And the winner is…. Nimrod. I had to admit defeat with four or five not done. I’ve never heard the expression ‘job-hop’, so no hope for me there. I had a mistake on 5/10A so defeated on 6/24.
    Having said all that I had no problem with clues like 13A and 15A conceptually, or in reality.
    Tough, but then again, that’s what we like, isn’t it?
    Thanks to Nimrod and grumpy John.

  9. hedgehoggy@8: In Draw Poker, if you do not take the opportunity to change some of your cards after the first round of betting, you are said to stand pat.

  10. @8 I thought the expression was to “sit pat”. Have no objection to 13A and 15A either, hard to believe SPOILT ROTTEN not encountered before and not in dictionaries (though I’ve just found it’s not in mine).

    Thanks to Nimrod and John.

  11. It’s the STOP AT = close I don’t get. The rest, though convoluted, I do see.

    The Spoonerism ind I didn’t think worked, although what else you can do is a poser.

  12. @4
    No, I don’t think they can be a Nina as they’re just the answers to two clues. A Nina is a hidden word or message. Why those two clues anyway?

  13. N- N-N- (2,4)

    (Just experimenting with grids…)

    I didn’t realise there was a big debate on the subject of cryptic definitions, but if you’d like to send me your views, it seems like a good subject for an Inquisitor commentary…

    Nice blog, Wil, for which many thanks.

    N

  14. Very fiendish, IMHO, but I got there in the end with COSSET my LOI after I realised “baby” could also be a verb. For 16dn I don’t have a problem with “kept one’s cards” as the definition for STOOD PAT, but I confess that the answer went in unparsed. However, now that it has been explained I think it is extremely devious but acceptable. “Close” is a reasonable synonym for “stop at” when it is pronounced “cloze”, and yes, I know that probably isn’t the correct phonetic spelling.

  16. Nice puzzle and not as hard as I feared it would be (though certainly not easy!).

    Hear hear, NMS at 6. Some people like CDs, other’s don’t. This blogger obviously doesn’t like them, because he moans about them every time he blogs a crossword that features one or more of them. John, we’ve got the point that you don’t like CDs. Can’t you accept that some of us do, and leave it alone?

  17. So everyone, except perhaps John and hedgehoggy (having the same reservations), understands how TWEET-TWEETED works?
    But I’m afraid I don’t.
    Is there anyone out there (eg the one @13) who can shine a light on this?

  18. The Tweed rises in Scotland and flows mainly in Scotland before forming the border between England and Scotland from Birgham near Coldstream to a point near Paxton. The final six or seven kilometres of its course are wholly within England. The Tweed is therefore an ‘across border current’

  19. … and the whole thing, I think, is just an anagram (struggling) of TWEED WET WET WET excluding (leaving)(W [with] + W [last letter of {finally} PELLOW])

  21. Based on hedgehoggy’s obvious incredulity I gave the parsing of STOOD PAT a little more thought and I think I have it now. I tried to think of a sentence in which “stop at” and “close” would be interchangeable and couldn’t, and it was then that I realised that “close” = “stop” and “to” = “at”, and the reversed “do” definition in the clue is “be just good enough for” rather than “to be just good enough for”. Any better suggestions or clarification from the setter would be appreciated.

  22. Nice lot of responses. Nimrod’s crosswords always inspire people to say their bit. Thanks PaulA@2, will amend the blog in a moment. I actually saw this at the time and then forgot. Language marches on, with u = you. On the matter of Spoonerism clues, what is the reason for any setter wanting to avoid his name? I suppose by doing so you are making it a bit more devious, but it’s usually pretty obvious what you have to do and it seems to me to be perfectly OK to mention the man himself. Sorry my going on so much about CDs offends you, Gridman@16. Probably repeating myself a bit. Must remember to be a bit gentler. Duncan@19, if it’s what you say then it’s an indirect anagram and I don’t think Nimrod would do such a thing. But if it isn’t then what is happening?

  23. Yes, John, I thought that I got it but on second thoughts I think you’re right.
    Duncan’s explanation leads to a very very indirect anagram.
    Indeed, can’t be right, can it?
    It’s all about the use of “across” that’s puzzling.

  24. Yes, definitely hard. (I’ve been out and only just got back to it.) In the end, I was wildly guessing just to complete the grid. Much to my surprise, only one of these guesses was wrong. Contrariwise, I was also surprised that my ridiculous guess for 18ac was actually correct.

  25. Excellent puzzle – simultaneously accessible and challenging.

    Sorry John but your blog reads like a review of a Rugby League match by a Rugby Union fanatic who is more concerned with telling us what’s wrong with the former code than with anything to do with the match itself.

    Bonus marks to the setter for avoiding obscurity – I wondered at first whether that’s where the unusual grid came from – ie build the answers and see what grid arises rather than shoe-horn words into a predetermined gird. Whatever it was it worked.

    CDs are what cryptic crosswords started from – long may they continue.

  26. Thanks to Nimrod and John,

    Yes, a bit like Leon W@5, my heart sank when I saw the dreaded (in a nice way!) Nimrod was the setter and the degree of difficulty turned out to be as expected. I missed out on 26,28a and 16d which I would never have worked out. Loved 23a and 11d – with 9,22 bit of a mini-theme there.

    IMHO CD’s are fine as long as they’re not overdone. They’re great if you do get them, but you do feel unfairly done by if you spend hours (in my case) vainly trying to parse the clue in fine detail.

    Thanks again

  27. John @22

    Touche

    I’ll have another go.

    How about “the anagram of WET WET WET excluding 2 of the Ws is crossing the TWEED a bit like a canoe and is therefore contained within the boundaries of the river , ie within the letters of TWEED”? TWEE (T WEETE*) D

    This would imply that the TWEED is the border [between England and Scotland] which I recognise is true, but only for a short bit of its course.

    Indirect anagram or containment indicator, we still have to deduce TWEED from the clue, but I do see that the letters of TWEED are not anagrammed if viewed as a container.

    Maybe, of course, the TWEED is a complete red herring and we are all barking up the wrong tree.

  28. It must be WET ET ET anagrammed in TWEED. ‘Across’ must be the inclusion indicator, although it seems to suggest something going outside rather than inside, and ‘border current has to mean ‘Tweed’. That’s very tough, and the answer is weird too.

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