Guardian 26,474 / Otterden

96 comments on “Guardian 26,474 / Otterden”

1. On 15A, I think the major river is the OB (in Siberia), and then ROUGH is “agitated state”.

2. I’m afraid I mhave to agree with you Eileen

3. In 4D is “tax payable” NIC (National Insurance Contributions)? Followed by ALBEIT cut back (by four letters)? If so, I don’t find it that convincing. National Insurance is not, technically speaking, a tax (though there’s a good argument that it ought to be considered one). And I think that cutting back 2/3 of a word is pushing it.

4. 15 ac. The Ob is a major river in Russia and I suppose “rough” is meant to be “an agitated state” but I’m not happy with it.

5. Thanks for the blog, Eileen – I share much of your sentiments in the preamble.

   Agreed with Jason on 15A. For 4dn – NIC=National Insurance Contribution, plus AL[beit].

6. Eileen

   15a rev of river OB + ROUGH.
   17a I is current reduction because it’s an abbreviation or short indicator for current V=IR etc.
   24 VA is in front of IN

   I found this to be lots of fun – quite Araucarian – surprised you didn’t like it.

   Thanks both.

7. Wow — 18 will offend many. Surely it would have been more tactful to say “Israeli, maybe” or find a less controversial approach altogether.

8. 15a Ob is a river in Russia + rough (agitated state) but it’s so …ugh. Afraid I agree with you 100%. Thanks anyway Eileen

9. What Eileen said. I gave up with a few to go.

10. That’s what you call rapid rsponse – which is what I expected!

    I think I do remember the river OB now, from a previous puzzle, but surely the clue should read ‘IN an agitated state’ for ‘rough’? And I still take serious issue with the definition.

    I entirely agree with Jason @3 re 4dn.

    Hi JS @6 – I’m so used to seeing current = I that the rest didn’t occur.

    Re 24, Gaufrid had alerted me to that, so it’s been amended.

    And I really don’t want to start WW3 but your last sentence leaves me speechless!

11. Thanks Eileen. I pretty much agree with what’s been said.

    Just a few of my niggles:

    10a – “some” isn’t good enough to indicate initials of all words.
    14a – “not” doesn’t work as anagrind.
    17a – I’m not sure if “I”, meaning current, is an abbreviation (which would explain “reduction”) – or if it’s merely a symbol. Can anyone clarify?.
    18d – Jew = Israeli doesn’t work for me. Not all Israelis will be Jews, nor vice-versa.

    All in all, the clues feel overlong and cumbersome.

12. Borough (or The Borough) is an old name for Southwark, which is indeed south of London Bridge, as opposed to The City, which is to the north – hence Borough Market, Borough High Street etc.

13. This seems not exactly to have a theme, but the Goon Show was definitely an hilarious ‘BBC HIT’ (first column).

14. Funny things crosswords. Some (like yesterday’s in my opinion) can be an absolute joy from start to finish whilst others (e.g. today’s, again in my opinion) are a bit of a plod? But it’s obvious that others find the enjoyment reversed (and why not?)

    I’m afraid I’m with you, Eileen, on this one – not much to smile about but thanks for the blog and thanks too to Otterden…..I’ll keep trying, I promise.

15. I see ENMITY backwards in the right hand column, too

16. Pursuant to Cookie @13, I also found ENMITY running up the other side of the grid. I don’t know what BBC HIT and ENMITY would have to do with each other, not on my side of the Atlantic anyway, but maybe someone across the pond from me could explain if this is a nina or just a huge coincidence.

17. I’m so sorry – I forgot to say, ‘Many thanks, all’ @10.

18. Thanks Eileen and Otterden
    I usually circle the clue numbers that I intend to comment on, one way or the other – here I had more cirlced than not, so I’ll miss some out.
    9a clunky
    15 I mentioned OB the river a few days ago – it had appeared in a Radio Times crossword – 7th longest in the world.
    20 Catalpa is “A bean tree”, but it is specifically INDIAN bean tree
    22a liked this, but is “on” correct – “part of” or “in”, surely?
    23 Chardonnay is a grape, not a drink – yes, wine is frequently made from these grapes, but this is “Chardonnay wine”
    2d PALM – this was actually my favourite
    22d why not avoid the controversy by using “lamenting” instead of “lamentable”? – surface is just as good.
    24d Second favourite

    (Honest – I have missed some out!)

19. Re 15: Borough is the next station south of (just down from) London Bridge on the Northern Line

20. Coochiemudlo @19 [and JS @12]

    I’m not questioning the accuracy of the definition, as I thought I made clear in the blog – but I expected howls of protest at its parochialism.

    Your comment reminded me irresistibly of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvMYHbN5baw ] 😉

21. @muffin #18

    Chardonnay – surely that’s stretching it a bit just to intentionally generate a quibble.

    If somebody offers me a glass of chardonnay I expect to receive a glass of wine – not a glass full of winegrapes – not even here, where they grow the stuff.

22. @Eileen #20. UK place-names are to be expected in a UK puzzle – but it might have been better had it not intersected with GROUND RENT – which AFAIK is pretty well a London thing – 99-year leases etc. At least I’ve never personally come across it anywhere else – no prob for me personally but tough for non-Brits.

23. Why does tongue equal alimentary canal? It may lead to it, but I would have thought it was a long way from it.

24. Hi Louise @ 23. I think it’s “on the 11 25” i.e. it’s part of it (as opposed to equalling it). I had to Google to confirm but many articles show the tongue as part of the AC.

25. JS

    I really don’t want to prolong this [I’m going out for lunch soon, anyway] but I’d bet that the vast majority of UK residents – and particularly those outside London, on hearing the word ‘borough’ would not immediately think of a specific place name.

    And I think GROUND RENT is pretty well known throughout.

    Hi Louise

    I’m sorry, my underlining went a bit awry – I’ll fix it: the second definition is ON the 11,25 – a bit loose, but it is at the top of the canal!

26. This is – in my personal view, I stress, for those who for some reason are worried that I’m trying to foist my opinions onto them – is one of the worst crosswords I have ever seen. To be fair, 24a, 3d, 5d, 13d, 24d were all right, but with the other 21 clues I had a problem, usually with grammar, and in just one or two cases mere extraneity. Again it’s only my view, but I really feel this is not a professional offering. There simply MUST be people out there who can do better.

27. Ground rent is not London-specific by the way.

28. John Appleton at 11:

    I for current does seem to be an abbreviation – but from a French word. I found the following (from what appears to be an undergraduate thesis: “The Names and Symbols of Physics”)

    “The notion of current was first introduced by Ampere, who called it �intensite� du courant�, translated, �the intensity of the flow�. We got the English word �current� from the latter part of the French term, �courant�. The use of the letter I was the first symbol given to this quantity, and is still the one we use today.”

    He also says: “The speed of light is named after the Latin word celeritas, meaning swiftness.”

29. I echo the negative comments. The two clues that annoyed me the most, and which surprisingly (IMHO) haven’t been much commented on, were the two crossing homophone clues at 22ac/18dn. Unless you already know the word CAECUM could just as easily have been “ceecum”, “ciecum” or “coecum”. Similarly the alternative spelling of “ju-jitsu” could also have been “jeu-jitsu”, “jou-jitsu” or “juu-jitsu”. I know that in cases like this a visit to a dictionary would solve the problem, but I much prefer clues where that isn’t necessary.

30. Dave @28: Many thanks for that.

31. Thanks Otterden and Eileen.

    What a miserable list of contributions, only JollySwagman not suffering from midwinter depression.
    I, as usual, enjoyed the puzzle, so my opinion probably goes for nothing.

    GROUND RENT is paid by holders of leasehold properties in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and also in many states of the USA.

    BOROUGH Market immediately came to mind with the definition, as did the river Ob from muffin’s comment the other day on it being the seventh longest river.

    My contribution’s captcha 8 – ? = zero !

32. In the light of the comment at #26 I don’t suppose hedgehoggy will be doing any Otterden puzzles in future.

    What happened to:

    “Any criticism of a puzzle or clue must be valid, constructive and presented in a polite manner.”

    Time for this slander to stop. We’ve seen it before and we all know what the agenda is.

33. JS @21
    You’re right, of course -certainly easier to drink once made into wine!

    I’ll substitute another – where is the “first letter” indication for ITEM? “Some” woul tend to hint at a hidden instead (my first thought, in fact).

34. That’s not polite for a start. I have stated that my posts are my opinion. You don’t have to agree with them, but you are not entitled to be rude and/ or aggressive in responding. ‘Slander’ by the way, is spoken, libel is written, something I would expect most people to understand.

    If I am being libellous I am the Queen of Sheba.

35. And by the way, ‘JollySwagman’ is the only one so far who likes anything about this puzzle, if I read the posts correctly.

    We are all ‘slanderers’ I guess 😀

36. Thanks Otterden, a bit of a slog but I got there in the end.

    Thanks Eileen for the blog. I think some of the criticisms are a bit over the top. For example, Wiki says about Israel : ‘In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and Democratic State,’ so I don’t think using Israeli=Jew should be contentious although of course there are many non-Jews living there. I agree with JS @21 that CHARDONNAY=wine is quite OK.

    My own particular, small gripe was the use of ‘get’ as a containment indicator in 9. I think we have previously discussed the use of ‘not’ as an anagrind and it is contentious, although it is listed in Chambers as an anagram indicator.

    I quite liked JIU-JITSU, although I was thinking of ‘sue,’ which is of course not a noun.

    Cookie @13 – one of my hobby horses but I don’t like an hilarious, an historical etc. An ‘ilarious, an ‘istorical, an ‘otel but where the ‘h’ is pronounced it sounds better to use ‘a,’ I think. [And yes, an historical is in common usage but that is not the point.] ……. end of rant! 🙂

37. Worth noting that 8a has been corrected in the online version to “Clinton, say, gets around it with glee (8)”. Still not the most scintilating clue, but at least it’s more-or-less sound now.

38. @muffin #33

    I think that’s typical of Otterden’s style and the reason why some people (especially those who prefer to follow set habits rather than apply logic to literal meanings) get upset.

    We are used to “some” being used to mean “most of” or “a good part of” but literally it can also mean “a little bit of”.

    Eg:

    Would you like some cake?

    I’m hoping that if you say Yes you’ll take just a slice – not almost all of it.

    In his interview with Alan Connor:

    http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/crossword-blog/2013/jun/13/crossword-blog-meet-setter-otterden

    in answer to the question:

    “Which other setters do you admire?”

    he replied:

    “In view of what I have just said I am bound to nominate Araucaria as the tops: it was he that showed more than any other setter that there was a way to set crosswords with greater pragmatism and joy than adherence to the academic dogma of the likes of Ximenes and a few others (some still about).”

    I think the key word there is “pragmatism”.

    Another characteristic is that there may be words which at first sight seem to be superfluous but which one can see (maybe after a second look) are actually validly consumed in the wordplay. In the old days they used a bit of “cryptic licence” to achieve smooth surfaces at the expense of superfluity in the wordplay; that’s not happening here – it’s all 100% legit – the chattiness is an illusion. A lot of Ximenes clues had a chatty feel to them – people forget that – although He did take liberties with definite articles.

    I think there’s more going on here than many folk realise.

39. I’ll defend “chardonnay” as that is often the defining word on a new world wine but alas I cannot defend the puzzle.

40. Robi @ 36, thanks, I do say ‘hilarious’ with an ‘h’, and pondered a while on whether I should write ‘a hilarious’ or ‘an hilarious’, my English is very rusty and getting rustier.

    Actually, I wonder if ‘a’ is ever correct, it is a weakening of Old English an (with a tilde on the a) ‘one’.

    When I say ‘hotel’ or ‘hilarious’ , I find myself saying ‘an hotel’ and ‘an hilarious’ stressing the h.

    Gaufrid is now being a little kinder with the captchas, two – 1 = ?

41. ’40, just adding, I would say ‘a history lesson’ but ‘an historical occasion’. Oh well…

42. Nobody’s mentioned it apart from Eileen, so I will. 1ac is simply wrong: it’s HILLARY CLINTON and not HILARY. When a setter makes such a basic mistake in the first clue I attempt (and get) then I’m not going to be well-disposed to the rest of the puzzle, I’m afraid.

43. KD @42
    I’m afraid that I spent some time trying to fit “BILL” into that one……….

44. It is wrong. Just putting ‘say’ on doesn’t help, because there are numerous Clintons out there. Is it now a homonym? Well then, still DBE and wrong (imo 😀 )

45. Thanks Otterden and Eileen. I concur with many of the above criticisms but still managed to enjoy the puzzle, partly because I now know a few things I didn’t before.

    Re Jews/Israelis. I retain my view (mentioned before) that in crosswords we don’t need all As to be Bs, some will do well enough.

    It’s only my opinion, of course, (to which I am entitled, of course) but I’d rather like hedgehoggy to go away.

    Finally, thanks to Dave at 28 for the very interesting info and link re ‘I’. I’ll be following that up.

46. Sadly, I agree with all complaints today.

    I made an effort afterwards to re-read everything from Otterden’s more relaxed point of view. As JollySwagman @ 38 points out, the verbosity is usually valid in the cryptic reading even if it’s not to everyone’s taste. Having granted that, I still can’t make grammatical sense out of the singular form “is” in 7d or “that” as a link word in 22d. I now feel a bit less grumpy about the rest though.

47. Well what can I say, ‘dunsscotus’? Should I retaliate and ask that you ‘go away’?

    🙁

48. Thanks Eileen, hope you are enjoying your lunch.

    Didn’t enjoy this a lot. In particular, I found 10ac unfair and failed to solve it.

    Nice to visit this site and find my reservations about this puzzle confirmed. It makes up (a bit) for those times when I sail through a crossword unaided, convince myself that I am not such an idiot after all, and the come here to find everyone complaining that the puzzle was too easy!

49. dunsscotus @ 45 and hedgehoggy at 47

    I think that there’s room for everyone’s opinion here. As I posted at 14, people get enjoyment from different setters so let’s all agree to disagree.

50. Eileen @20
    Thanks (I think) for the earworm!

51. [Robi @36, I think my usage is due to accentuation, for instance /’history in the dictionary as compared to /hi’storical (my system won’t let me write the pronunciation correctly).]

52. For what it’s worth, I enjoyed this more than yesterday’s.

53. Hmmm. Not sure I can be positive about this – I found it more difficult than previous Otterdens and with more pain than entertainment – finished it online with a bit of guess and check since otherwise I’d have run out of time. For once I think I largely agree with hedgehoggy’s assessment. Last in was CYNICAL. BOROUGH did amuse me since we had a conversation Cookie mentions @31.

    Thanks to Eileen (I don’t envy you the task of blogging this) and Otterden

54. Cookie @ 31 – I agree with you that the puzzle was OK. Yes, HILARY was wrong but HILARITY was very clearly the right answer. It seems that you and I aren’t as fussy as most of the others. I enjoy the puzzle every day, although some are wonderful, and others just good enough. I venture to surmise that some posters here get upset when they can’t complete the puzzle, and like to take it out on the setter rather than just accepting it with good grace. Does it really matter that much?! As Aoxomoxoa @ 49 says, people get enjoyment from different setters.

55. I hesitate to join in with all the criticisms, just to say I found it very difficult and failed to finish it.

56. I agree with Eileen…and hedgehoggy. 🙂

    Is HILARY in the very first clue the sort of thing one might expect an editor to notice?

57. Thanks Otterden and Eileen.

    Am I the only one who doesn’t like ‘state’ (as used in 24a) to indicate any one of the 50 two-letter US postal codes? To me this is actually almost twice as bad as cluing individual letters with the word ‘letter’! I mean, there are only 26 of them, so why not?

58. Good point!

59. Well, I enjoyed it and I’m rather surprised at the negative responses. I loved GROUND RENT, CAECUM, BOROUGH and,yes, HILARITY. I’m with Drofle on this and, needless to say, I’m with Cookie on the puzzle as a whole, which I may say, is a puzzle and not an academic exercise!
    Thanks Otterden. Have a nice day everyone.

60. I think getting the spelling of someone’s name wrong in this circumstance isn’t okay, or any sort of licence, it’s just wrong. The fact that “hilarity” was obviously the answer is not, I’m afraid, the point. And yes, I’m also astonished that the editor didn’t spot it. I think the on-line amendment doesn’t quite cut the custard, either.

    As for the general negativity I’m not going to buck the trend: it takes quite a lot to actually annoy me, but 10ac(Item) did. I refuse to get my knickers in a twist about Chardonnay, however. Yes, it’s a grape, but it’s also the name of the wine. It’s on the label.

    By and large what I think of as the “new” setters – those who have come on-stream over the last three or four years – are of high quality, and their work is a decent mix of the challenging and the entertaining. I don’t exclude Otterden from this, I hope he’s in it for the long haul, but I think today was a bit of a mis-step.

    For Nina fans, yesterday’s Times, no. 26,000 might prove worth a bash, if you can get at it. One of the best I’ve ever seen.

61. Ian Payn @60

    I withdrew my comment on Chardonnay @33.

    I’m intrigued by “cut the custard” – how thick do you make it? (Though “cut the mustard” doesn’t make much more sense!)

62. Wow this, with one or two notable exceptions, is seriously critical. It is also clear as an earlier responder said that there is a bit of jumping on the band-waggon/ throwing anything into the mix going on. In short it is moving towards unfair. I too had some criticisms (tongue and caecum are part of not the alimentary canal). But Otterden’s last puzzle was thoroughly enjoyable. Let’s hope that he gets further opportunities.

63. MANG @ 62
    In what way is CAECUM not part of the alimentary canal? Yes, it’s a side branch, but it still is part, isn’t it? (I did object to “on”, though – “part of” or “in” would be more correct.)

64. Thanks Otterden and Eileen

    Guess I’m in the greater minority here – I liked it. Have had my issues with previous Otterden puzzles, but found this one ratcheted up the difficulty level a bit and although quirky in places, I found every clue gettable and, with the exception of CYNICAL, ‘parsable’.

    Even from down here, I had little trouble finding The BOROUGH. As with most ‘local knowledge clues’, it did require a little research, but certainly gettable from the cryptic part.

    Would’ve been interested from Otterden to see if there was anything going on with the nina.

65. I finished this but without much enthusiasm.

    I don’t wish to add to the criticism although most of it is fair. What I think most irks me, and perhaps others, is that there is so much obviously wrong with this puzzle. How on earth did this get past the editor? (Still on his holliers I assume. 😉 )

    Thanks to Eileen and Otterden

    P.S. I would never wish that any of the posters should “go away”. Although hedgehoggy is often contentious he definitely has as much right to spout his nonsense on here as I have to spout mine. (That almost sounds like the awful and probably apocryphal Liberal quote. “I may not agree with what he says but I would die to defend his right to say it”. I know this is probably a laudable sentiment but I’m never sure whether laughter or vomiting is the correct response.)

66. BNTO @65
    Paraphrase of Voltaire, I think.

67. Thanks Muffin.

    I always knew a 70s Liberal couldn’t have thought of this all on his own.(Obviously my own “Classical” education is sadly lacking. )

68. I do not wish to enter the discussion about this puzzle, but I do find the immediate assumption by today’s blogger and other regular correspondents that just because it is a crossword by Otterden, then it is fair game to tear it apart. Show me another compiler whose work is constantly under fire on this website. Otterden’s contribution to the New Statesman series cannot be faltered and his puzzles in that periodical have received praise rather than criticism on numerous occasions. So why are folk so anti-Otterden on this website?

69. adabber @ 68
    Just read blogs on Rufus puzzles (though I think they are generally more interesting than this one was).

70. adabber @68

    I think that you’ll find that nobody has criticsed Otterden on here.

    However his puzzles in the Guardian have received quite a lot of negative comment. The reasons for these comments are, almost always, quite clearly stated in the posts.

71. Rapid response or rabid response?

    Well, I enjoyed it (with some reservations).

    Thanks, Otterden. NIL CARBORUNDUM BASTARDI (or words to that effect). I think it was you that had this marvellous Nina in a puzzle last year.

72. I know, and earnestly hope, that most everyone has moved on. I just wanted to post to memorialize this occasion: for the first time in many years, I was unable to make any headway, anywhere, on this puzzle without benefit of the cheat buttons. Maybe this was because I waited until my evening train to attempt it, so was in less of a persevering mood. Or maybe it was a function of the shortcomings of the puzzle. Or maybe I’m just an idjit. But there you are.

    Incidentally, when an American hears “borough,” he generally thinks of Manhattan, Brooklyn, or the Bronx. (Some) cities in New Jersey and (all) counties in Alaska are both also called boroughs, though those uses of the term are less well known.

73. Not my favourite but I liked it. Spelling of Hillary was a mistake but all other clues pretty fair and good fun. Some of the criticisms are really odd, but I guess one man’s meat…

74. I know I’m extraordinarily late in commenting on this puzzle, possibly because I didn’t finish it; I imagine that few will read what I say that this hour. But I must say that, although some of us like crosswords because of the possibility of perfection, it’s worth being tolerant about a few rough edges. I didn’t get ‘item’ and was annoyed about the unfair construction; I agree that misspelling ‘Hillary’ in this context is a mistake. However, given Otterden’s obvious talents, far beyond what most of us consumers can achieve, I’d want to encourage him to greater heights.

    On the question ‘an’ before an ‘h’: it’s entirely optional. Some people want to include it before an unstressed first syllable, others, more recently, put an ‘a’ before every first ‘h’. Either is fine.

75. I’m not sure whether I want to write this post.
    ‘Then don’t!’, one might say.

    At 65, Brendan says: “Although hedgehoggy is often contentious he definitely has as much right to spout his nonsense on here as I have to spout mine”.
    Now that is something that’s completely fair from a site-policy point of view.
    But calling hedgehoggy’s comments (and his own 🙂 ) nonsense is not something that I agree with. He focuses very much on the technical aspects of clueing (often rightly so) and, yes, today there was indeed a lot wrong.

    Many of these things can be found in the comments above.
    It’s not just the blatant mistake in 8ac. These things can happen (perhaps, or perhaps not). I felt immediately that something wasn’t right as, a few years ago in a Derby puzzle, my alter ego clued HILARITY deliberately without Clinton [“Great fun having sex during term at Oxford”].

    I just cannot understand why indicators like “some” (10ac), “not” (14ac) and “dancer” (2d) have gone past the editor.
    Some definitions were also kind of dubious. I wouldn’t call a virtuoso a ‘leading expert’ or a don a ‘gang leader’ but these hurdles were taken relatively easily.

    One of the main problems of Otterden’s style of clueing is, IMO, that he tends to make clues too wordy when he thinks the surface asks for it.
    “Current reduction” (17ac), the addition of “to go along with it” (26ac) and “imagine a leading, etc” (20ac) being clear examples.
    15ac has “major river”. Why on earth is that better than just “river”? And as Eileen said ‘agitated state’ is wrong for ‘rough’. The definition (‘just down from London Bridge’) is also rather bad. It would perhaps work if there were an s or apostrophe-s between fodder and definition.
    Also, the way Otterden’s cutting off SU[it] or AL[beit] isn’t great. Yes, perhaps, Araucaria did similar things too – still.

    It looks like Otterden wants to pimp up his surfaces to make them as exciting as possible, meanwhile becoming sloppy.

    Like many, I had double feelings about Otterden’s previous puzzle. It had the same iffiness, yet for some reason I found it enjoyable.
    Today it was more or less similar although the minuses had the edge.

    Or is it that, as one always on the setter’s side, I am reluctant to admit that this was overall just a poor puzzle?

    See that’s why I wasn’t sure whether I should post a comment or not.

    Should I stay or should I go?
    I go.

    Thanks Eileen.

76. @Jovis at 71. No, that was Nutmeg

77. I confidently wrote in PORTUGUESE (a ‘tongue’) for 6dn because googling SPOKES and PORTUGAL gave me a hit.

    Just saying:-)

    Tony

78. Louise@76 – thanks for the correction.

    Apologies to Nutmeg for ascribing that brilliant construction wrongly. I still hold to the sentiment that Otterden gets treated very harshly on this site – someone once described the contributors as “rottweilers”; again a bit harsh but there is a modicum of truth there.

79. Sil van den Hoek, 15a ‘major river’ is apt, the Ob is the 7th longest in the world; even with that help Eileen could not see it. Most of the posters did since we had been discussing the Ob a few days ago.

80. Jovis @ 71

    NIL ILLIGITIMI CARBORUNDUM was how we put it. Mind, my latin word endings might be a bit rusty..

81. Also ‘agitated state’ for ‘rough’ is perfectly reasonable, ‘the sea is rough’, ‘the sea is agitated’.

    23a, what is wrong with ‘don’? In North American slang it is used for a high ranking member of the Mafia, or the leader of any organized crime family for that matter

82. Hi Vic – i am sure your latin syntax is perfect but I think this particular nina did refer specifically in what may be termed “dog latin” to people born out of wedlock…

83. I think many of you are rather tough on some of our compilers. We need to remember how hard it must be to complete a grid , let alone come up with about 30 cryptic clues to challenge varying levels of experience and (up to a point) knowledge. I have to say that in this particular crossword, the clues to eg VAIN, CONDENSE and REDNECK seemed unnecessarily easy but there was plenty elsewhere to enjoy eg GROUND RENT, CAECUM and BASENJI. We can’t expect absolute brilliance in every clue every day.

84. Cookie (@79 and 81).

    I did see OB but I would also have seen it without ‘major’. This adjective didn’t add anything for me. That said, it’s not wrong, of course, but one more example of Otterden being too wordy (IMO, that is, we may differ).

    Don is indeed, as you say, a high ranking member of the Mafia. To call him a gang leader feels like downgrading to me.
    Moreover, it’s American slang, not indicated, in an English puzzle.

    Now, there is a noun “rough”. Only Chambers gives something that might perhaps justify “agitated state”: ‘rough state’, without any further clarification what kind of ‘rough’ is meant. Collins just refers to ‘in the rough’ which is slightly different.
    I am happy with your example.

    My long post @75 was certainly not intended to slam the setter.
    As julia says @83 ‘there was plenty to enjoy’.
    And there was!
    But overall, Otterden’s in places long-winded style doesn’t hit the right note with me.
    ‘We can�t expect absolute brilliance in every clue every day’ (julia @83).
    True but the least we may expect are clues that are technically sound or, at least, free of annoying iffiness.
    I’m afraid that Otterden’s crosswords for the Guardian (I don’t know his work for the New Statesman) have so far evoked a continuous stream of criticism. Just have a look at the blogs of his previous puzzles, it’s a bit like in the past with Gordius.
    Yes, it is not nice for the setter to read all these mostly negative comments here but that’s life, I’m afraid.

85. Sil van den Hoek @84, thanks for bothering to reply.

    The first reference I gave for Don was from the OCED. Apparently the term has been made popular by films depicting the Mafia, e.g. The Godfather series, where the crime boss would claim for himself the signs of respect that were traditionally granted in Italy to the nobility; Don Corleone (head of the Corleone family), Don Barzini (head of the Barzini family), Don Tattaglia (head of the Tattaglia family)…

86. And the crossword world has its own Don ….
    Leader of the Gang?
    🙂

87. My time is so limited during the week that I am only now solving this week’s crosswords but felt obliged to spring to Otterden’s defence. If I had a complaint it was that the puzzle yielded swiftly (max 15 mins with all parsed – save the ‘nay’ component of 23ac). I thought it was a most acceptable crossword and agree with Cookie – I usually do!
    I can understand that if one is confronted with the original version of 1ac and is then stumped by NIC et al through limited knowledge and/or intellect (and wrongly takes issue with ‘rough’ being indicated by ‘agitated state’) then one’s opinion might be jaundiced. Proven, perhaps, by not enjoying PALM which I thought was delightfully clued….
    All in all, I thought there were far too many negative opinions which reflect the shortcomings of blogger and contributors. To add more balance I proudly aver my appreciation to Otterden for his efforts.
    And to JS and Cookie – keep up the positivity; you have my respect!

88. ….by “1ac” I, of course, meant “8ac”…

89. Regarding 8a, “HILARITY”, with the correction: I thought that a homophone was supposed to apply to the whole clue, since it’s not clear where the boundary is when you mix a homophone with a clue to the letters.

90. Hi Mark

    I doubt whether anyone else will see your comment. [The only reason I saw it is that bloggers get an email of all comments on their blog.]

    I don’t understand your query, I’m afraid, There is no homophone involved in the clue: it simply requires you to put HILARY around IT.

91. Hi Eileen

    Yes, I realize I’m very late to this discussion, but thanks for replying.

    I understood that the clue was corrected by adding “say” after “Clinton”, to make “HILARY” a homophone for “HILLARY”.

92. I’m so sorry, Mark. I’d forgotten the attempt to amend the mistake in the original clue – in fact, I’ve been trying to forget this blog [and some of the comments] altogether. 😉

    I think the wordplay in the amended clue, ‘Clinton, say, gets around it with glee’, make it quite clear that the ‘say’ refers to Clinton – doesn’t it?

93. Hi Eileen,

    No problem.

    But I think my original point got lost somewhere: I thought that a homophone had to be the entire wordplay; not just a part of it, as it is in this clue. In this clue, we have homophone-plus-container. In general, it won’t be well-defined how to combine the sound of a homophone with a clue to the actual letters. At any rate, this rule is followed by the best-quality American cryptics, but maybe not in British ones.

94. We still lack a parsing for CYNICAL.

95. Huw Powell:

    I didn’t bother to work this one out at the time, but here’s my take:

    4 Bitter controversy on both sides at tax payable � albeit cut back (7)
    CYNICAL

    CYNICAL = “bitter”: definition
    CY = “controversy on both sides”
    NI = National Insurance = “tax payable”
    AL = “albeit cut back” ie “albeit” shortened

96. Huy Powell and Mark

    i think that’s what Jason @3 and manehi @5 said. I didn’t get round to amending the blog but will do it now, for the sake of the archive.

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