The puzzle may be found at http://www.theguardian.com/crosswords/cryptic/26498.
I found this quite a struggle, and completed it with both relief and satisfaction. Boatman here makes considerable use of single letters taken out of words in the clue (‘initial Warning’ etc.), which is not universally admired. The bird theme permeates a large part of the puzzle.
| Across | ||
| 1 | DOMAIN |
Kingdom acquired by matricide? (6)
DO MA IN. What more to be said?
|
| 5 | INDURATE |
Hard natured? I could be improved (8)
An anagram (‘could be improved’) of ‘natured I’.
|
| 9 | DEVOURED |
As said of old, did raven and dove dance and turn crimson? (8)
A charade of DEVO, an anagram (‘dance’) of ‘dove’ plus U (‘turn’) plus RED (‘crimson’). ‘raven’ (short a): to devour hungrily.
|
| 10 | CANARY |
One sings in cage, cautious, giving out initial warning (6)
A charade of CAN (‘cage’, prison) plus [w]ARY (‘cautious’) without (‘giving out’) the W (‘initial Warning’).
|
| 11 |
See 22
|
|
| 13 |
See 22
|
|
| 14 | SINECURE |
Confident about homework? That’s easy! (8)
An envelope (‘about’) of IN EC (‘homework’; IN for the ‘home’ part is standard, and “home ec” – for economics – as a school subject I have only come across in an American context. In any case, this seems a little strained to me) in SURE (‘confident’). But see GN @1, to whom thanks, for a more sensible explanation.
|
| 17 | FORENOON |
Number 1 Queen disc Flash — it’s first given a spin on AM (8)
A reversal (‘given a spin’) of NO (‘number’) plus ONE (‘1’) plus R (‘Queen’) plus O (‘disc’) plus F (‘Flash its first’. The apostrophe in it’s should be ignored).
|
| 18 | OWLS |
Headless chickens? Proverbially, the opposite (4)
[f]OWLS (‘chickens’; fowl may be the more common plural, but not the only one) without its first letter (‘headless’), the reference being to the wisdom of owls.
|
| 20 | GREEN GODDESS |
Scrambled eggs endorsed and used in an emergency by the army (5,7)
An anagram (‘scrambled’) of ‘eggs endorded’. GREEN GODDESS rang a faint bell for me, probably from the 1977 fire-fighters’ strike.
|
| 23 | PARROT |
Copy section about redstart and duck (6)
An envelope (‘about’) of R (‘Redstart’) plus O (‘duck’) in PART (‘section’).
|
| 24 | AIR-TO-AIR |
Samba man from Brazil broadcast in flight (3-2-3)
A charade of AIRTO (Moriera, ‘samba man from Brazil’) plus AIR (‘broadcast’).
|
| 25 | STATUTES |
Figures out the end in acts (8)
An envelope (‘out’?) of T (‘The end’ – a word has two ends!) in STATUES (‘figures’).
|
| 26 | LASTLY |
Ultimately, one learns not to be horrid (6)
I’m groping here: I think it is L (‘one learns’ – a learner driver) plus [be]ASTLY (‘horrid’) without the BE (‘not to be’).
|
| Down | ||
| 2 |
See 22
|
|
| 3 | AHOY THERE |
Boatman thus greets one; going on theory, he waves (4,5)
A charade of A (‘one’) plus HOYTHERE, an anagram (‘waves’) of ‘theory he’.
|
| 4 | NARROW |
Fine pintail carried by pointer (6)
A charade of N (‘piNtail’) plus ARROW (‘pointer’). ‘Carried by’ is suitable for a down light.
|
| 5 | IN DRIBS AND DRABS |
With it, lark perhaps rises over shore; poet likewise begins singing, but not all at once (2,5,3,5)
A charade of IN (‘with it’) plus DRIB, a reversal (‘rises’ in a down light) of BIRD (‘lark perhaps’) plus SAND (‘shore’) plus DRAB, a reversal (‘likewise’ i.e. also ‘rises’) of BARD (‘poet’) plus S (‘begins Singing’).
|
| 6 | DECADENT |
A number of years before part of the Bible becomes corrupt (8)
A charade of DECADE (‘a number of years’) plus NT(New Testament, ‘part of the Bible’).
|
| 7 | RENEW |
Revive wren horribly pecked by eagle’s beak (5)
An envelope (‘pecked by’?) of E (‘Eagle’s beak’?) in RNEW (or RENW), an anagram (‘horribly’) of ‘wren’.
|
| 8 | TURN TURTLE |
Capsize, following report of one seen flying, a sea creature (4,6)
A charade of TURN, a homophone (‘report of’) of TERN (‘one seen flying’) plus TURTLE (‘a sea creature’).
|
| 12 | COLOUR FAST |
Beneath cuckoo’s wings (so artful, so wrong!), not about to run (6,4)
A charade of CO (‘CuckoO‘s wings’) plus LOURFAST, an anagram (‘so wrong’) of ‘so artful’.
|
| 15 | CROSSBOWS |
Spooner to control birds with old weapons (9)
BOSS CROWS (‘control birds’).
|
| 16 | FORGET IT |
You may not imitate a bird (6,2)
A charade of FORGE (‘imitate’) plus TIT (‘a bird’).
|
| 19 | PETREL |
Picked up fuel, one seen in flight overseas (6)
A homophone (‘picked up’) of PETROL (‘fuel’). The definition requires reading ‘overseas’ as two words.
|
| 21 | EGRET |
One wades in with a bill, say? About time (5)
A charade of EG (‘say’) plus RE (‘about’) plus T (‘time’).
|
| 22,11,2,13 | KILL TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE |
Use a crafty throw — and, lo, siskin and tit now bleed (4,3,5,4,3,5)
An anagram (‘use a crafty’) of ‘throw’ plus ‘lo siskin’ plus ‘tit now bleed’, with an extended definition. Note that the word division of the answer does not follow the light division of 2D and 13A; this is widely regarded as valid, provided that, as here, the lights contain real words.
|
13A. The def is ‘work that is easy’, and wordplay is ‘confident (SECURE) about home (IN).
^^that should be 14A
Thanks, PeterO.
One across I liked; the rest, no. I finished, but so many I did not fully understand, so thanks for 10 explanations!
1Ac should really be “Kingdom to commit matricide?”, surely?
Actually quite enjoyable, if a bit convoluted in parts – I never quite see the point of having wordplay if no one is going to bother with it. 1a, as already pointed out, was good, and the expression green goddess always takes me back to all those strikes in the 70s. (Not so mad about the clue, though – eggs?!) the Samba fellow will be chuffed with the call-out, I dare say, but it was another where one just trusted to checkers, so a little unfulfilling. OTOH, top marks for getting ‘raven’ in a puzzle. A tough one to blog, so well gone, Peter.
@ 4 – I think ‘acquired by’ just functions as the linking bit here. Makes the surface a bit more elegant than the one you suggest, methinks.
@ 6 – Yes, but matricide is ‘doing ma in’, not ‘do ma in’ – different parts of speech, whichever way you interpret it.
Point taken, but could we not parse ‘do ma in’ as an abbreviated form of ‘to do ma in’ to extricate ourselves from that problem?
Fraid not. It’s still a verbal phrase, whereas ‘matricide’ is a noun and ‘acquired by matricide’ is an adjectival phrase.
DOMAIN as DO MA IN is a lovely old chestnut that I have used myself (Commit matricide in the field). Were I to complain about my fellow-setter’s use of inaccurate grammar, I would expect in due course to be called a ‘ximmie troll’ by another blogger on GU, so I’d better not do it, had I?
I was referring to utterances such as ‘To do ma in was his lifelong fantasy’ – the setter being given the benefit of initial deletion. A stretch, of course, but just about ‘seeable’, if not strictly feasible.
Thanks Peter. Shouldn’t complain just because this took twice as long to solve as usual. I did like 1A and 5D. The long anagram had snares like ‘throw’ doing double duty and the 4,4 finish. But for the life of me I couldn’t work out th e samba clue, or 26a or the canary. Last in 17A chewed p a lot of time, too. Whew.
Lovely puzzle, including DOMAIN (last one in for me). I particularly liked KILL TWO BIRDS etc, CROSSBOWS and SINECURE. Many thanks to Boatman and PeterO.
Thank you, Peter.
Got there in the end but found this strangely unsatisfying. Too many where I could see some complicated word play but couldn’t quite straighten it out.
The obscure Brazilian samba chap, for example, coupled with the weak def “in flight” renders a perfectly getable clue unsatisfying for me.
STATUTES is another, I’m afraid.
Hey-ho, it’s all a matter of personal taste and this was, after all, a soluble and well constructed puzzle.
Thank you, Boatman.
…forgot to say, liked DEVOURED – clever clue.
…also forgot to say that Richard Heald is probably right re DO-MA-IN. It just doesn’t work.
Quixote @10 ha-ha! Nice of you to drop in with wit this morning.
The only thing I liked was the TWO BIRDS anagram, which is almost quite good.
1a grammar problem as discussed; 9a tense of indicator; 10a can=cage? Only via ‘prison’, but if you say so; 14a ‘homework’ for IN+EC is nonsense; 17a nonetheless, the apostrophe is a cryptic-grammatical error; 20a tense of def; 23a ‘Redstart’ is (okay) a Guardianism, but also grammatically incorrect; 25a dodgy ind and I don’t like ‘the end’ for T which is a grammatical error anyway; 26a ‘not to be’ is a grammatical error; 3d grammar again, ‘on’ is wrong here for the down clue, and ‘waves’ is in the wrong tense for the construction; 4d piNtail is a Guardianism but also a grammatical error; 5d ‘begins’ is a grammatical error (should be ‘beginning to sing’ or something; 7d ‘beak’ does not define first letter and ‘pecked by’ does not make a container ind; 12d second ‘so’ is padding; 15d ‘with’ in that position changes the tense of def.
Apparently Boatman teaches compilers. OMG!
Am I a ”Ximmie troll’ yet?
Hahahahaha 😀
Excellent puzzle – exercising a good part of full range of logical and conventional cluing devices as accurately described by Douglas Barnard in his seminal (and properly indexed – and never bettered) 1963 book.
A shame for those fooled by the lie that ximenean cluing was the “orthodox” approach. Can’t think where they got that idea from; wherever it was I think hh most likely has a copy.
BTW it’s ximtroll – not “ximmie troll” – I do hate sloppiness.
Slow burner for me but no standstills. Stare a bit harder at the ones that won’t fall. Ask the question: has the setter used a curly device in this one maybe?
@hedgehoggy,
My goodness, how irritating are you?
Your post with a bird themed crossword and the word ‘thrush’ springs to mind
hedgehoggy@17
9a tense seems OK to me (‘did raven’ = past tense)
10a also seems OK
14a I agree about the EC – pretty recondite.
17a apostrophes are often ignored
23a nothing unusual here
25a Yes, rather iffy.
26a Couldn’t parse this myself; just about OK I think.
3d Perfectly OK. Can’t see the problem.
4d Perfectly OK.
5d Once again, OK.
7d And again.
12d Yes, but does it matter?!
15d It’s pretty clear what the Spoonerism is.
Insulted again. Thanks ‘izzysgrandad’ ðŸ™
izzysgrandad @ 20
Parson’s nose springs to mind…
Hi drofle
Not worried about ‘did raven’, it’s ‘dance’ that doesn’t work.
‘Nounal’ in the hedgehoggy world is wrong btw. I don’t like it. The other stuff I guess is your opinion? So okay.
Insulted again, thanks Simon S ðŸ™
I think the correct parsing of 25A is meant to be STATUES (“figures”) with T (“[ou]T, the end”) “in”?
Agree with Paul O @26, and it seems Hedgehoggy and Drofle missed GN’s note @1. 14A is a “lift and separate” clue. Insert a space between home and work and any complaints disappear. Fine clue in a difficult but satisfying puzzle. I enjoyed the breadth of clue types. Thanks PeterO for the explanation of LASTLY, my LOI and the only one I couldn’t parse.
Thanks, PeterO – very glad I didn’t land this to blog yesterday!
I had resolved not to enter the inevitable fray today but, in the interests of fairness –
hedgehoggy @ 17 and drofle @21 – in 14ac, there is no problem with EC: the parsing is explained in comment 1. [Something I often want to say – it’s usually a good idea to read the comments as well as the blog.]
I don’t wish to comment on 1ac , except to say that I preferred Poins’ rendering of this ‘lovely old chestnut’: ‘Kill to acquire mother’s estate’.
Sorry, HKColin [long time no see – welcome back!] – we crossed.
I managed to finish correctly without recourse to aids but with a few unparsed. I’d never heard of the Brazilian samba musician, and I didn’t bother to unpick the wordplay for the long answer and FORENOON. As is usual with Boatman, and this is only my opinion, it was a good mental workout but not a lot of fun.
I agree with GN@1’s parsing of SINECURE. Those who criticised the wordplay should probably have read the whole string of comments first.
Hoggy – I do indeed teach (I’ll be in Birmingham on 9 May, for anyone who’s interested), and one of the first things I tell my students is that the “rules” are there for a reason and that setters should learn to follow them until they feel confident in their judgment about when to break them.
My personal view is that the way we solve problems has moved on from the classical tradition, in which verbal argument was the primary means by which an educated person would get to the truth, and in which mangled grammar or punctuation could be fatal. Our use of language now is more allusive, and our thinkers are more likely to have been brought up on computer code then on Latin and Greek. Should we respond to these changes by preserving the crossword as a classical artform or by allowing it to evolve? I know which way feels right to me, but I can respect the opposing view, just as I can enjoy the work of (say) a jazz pianist who learns to play in the style of Monk or Brubeck.
If you don’t think that splitting “Confident about homework? That’s easy!” into “Confident about home … Work that’s easy” is a fair clueing device, I won’t try to convince you – I just hope that one day you may find yourself smiling at it, despite yourself!
And – Don – let’s not argue about DOMAIN: your clue is much better than mine. Sometimes the old chestnuts just can’t be improved by further roasting …
Okay so 14a isn’t quite as bad. Fair enough. It’s still joined the def part to the clue bit, which is a Guardianism that’s also grammatically wrong, obviously!
@26 STATUTES can’t work like that because there would be no containment.
Thank you, Boatman, for a most enjoyable puzzle. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about not being constrained by the “classical tradition”, and about the importance of evolution in the style of crosswords.
Didn’t manage to finish this, though what I did manage was enjoyable. Failed on CROSSBOWS and had to kick myself for doing so.
DOMAIN was actually my favourite. Thanks Boatman and PeterO.
Dear hedgehoggy, I think what bothers many people about your comments is that we all come to this blog to share the fun we get out of crosswords (and sometimes, inevitably, our puzzlement at clues that made no sense to us). In that context it’s a downer to find someone here who almost literally never (except for yesterday’s Brendan) has anything good to say. It’s not that you’re not entitled to your opinion, it’s just that the way you express it takes some of the light out of each of our mornings. Since you presumably do crosswords, even the Guardian crossword, because you enjoy them, do you think you could find a way to allow some of that enjoyment to shine through, as well as the criticism? I would certainly appreciate it if you could.
… oh, and — I agree with John A @34, DOMAIN made me laugh out loud even though it’s true that the clue wasn’t perfect. On the other hand, parsing AIR TO AIR completely defeated me. So glad fifteensquared exists!
Thanks Boatman and PeterO.
I had not heard of the GREEN GODDESS before, but was not in Britain in the ’70’s, nor of AIRTO Moriera.
I did like DOMAIN, COLOUR FAST and TURN TURTLE.
Well logophile I do enjoy stuff. It’s just that people seem to enjoy making I fuss when I do one of my lists! And it’s simply not true to say that I am ‘literally almost never’ happy about the Guardian puzzles. The thing is, when they are good there’s not much to say, except to comment on the occasional pearler or whatever.
How anyone would know who Airto Moreira is, is not clear to me. ‘Samba man’? Oh, thanks!
Thanks for popping in, Boatman. I’ll sail with you any day.
Major diff between Monk and Brubeck in piano playing but both fine composers. Monk being the Bach of jazz and Brubeck contributing “The Duke” to “Miles Ahead”.
drofle @21
Thank you for your comprehensive rebuttal to our resident Beckmesser (if that title does not accord him more importance than he merits). My own favourite is 15D, where the answer is a noun, and the word ‘with’ apparently changes the tense of the definition.
Boatman @31, I enjoy lift and separate clues. However Qaos, 26,294 3d, used 1,500 expecting it to be lifted and separated (1, 500) to 1 and 500. I wish someone like you or Sil would comment on this.
hedgehoggy @38 — I think that’s the point, when you enjoyed a crossword it would be nice to hear a “that was fun” or “that was mostly fun, but” from you, not an unrelieved list of complaints. Thanks for considering my point of view.
Thanks to Boatman and PeterO. This was too hard for me and I resorted to some cheats – I always have some trouble adapting to the rules of engagement for intra-word splits or ignored apostrophes. I really liked the extended definitions in 10a, 22a and 3d, but I also didn’t get along with the verb forms in 1a and 9a.
Boatman @ 31, I was brought up on computer code but I don’t think that’s any help. Its grammar is much stricter than English, cryptic or otherwise!
Airto Moriera is one of the world’s top jazz percussionists and has played with many of the leading musicians in the jazz (and rock) world. So, in my book, his inclusion is just as acceptable as, say, an obscure Shakespearean character or a Bulgarian classical cellist. 😉
My singing may be bad, but I’ve yet to kill two birds with my tone…
A very fun puzzle, with a theme that was right up my street. Thanks to Boatman and to PeterO
(Boatman @31 – I just have to say; as anyone who’s spent hours picking through code in search of a single typo or misplaced quotation mark can tell you, computer code is possibly even more pedantic and Ximenean than Latin could ever be!)
HH@38 – also, re. Airto Moreira, I had no idea who he was but in retrospect if I had googled “airto” (the part of the answer I couldn’t explain) he would have popped right up. Maybe you don’t think we should have to use Google to parse answers, but if a setter were limited only to information he/she could be certain we all have, crosswords would be pretty dull. I enjoy learning new things from crosswords. I hadn’t heard of GREEN GODDESS either. I’m OK with that.
Surely Boatman’s point about computer code is not that it is imprecise but that setters can no longer expect every solver to have been brought up on the classics.
Which Bulgarian classical cellist had you in mind, Aoxo? 😀
I am sorry, but how does continuing to use good grammar preclude moving forward with language, away from whatever this ‘classical tradition’ is? That’s ridiculous, and the obvious foil to it is Araucaria, who pushed it like crazy, and is still out there somewhere, and who always managed to satisfy the grammarians, or almost always. You could have corrected the mistakes in today’s offering and still had the essence of ‘moving forwardness’ in my book!
Anatoli Kratsev comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuFoVyD2iQc
#49 is a reply to #44
logophile @ 46 – I completely agree about learning from crosswords. I often have to Google an answer, especially if it’s a Bulgarian classical cellist (hedgehoggy @ 48 😉 )
Well get it right, JS: it’s Krastev.
… and also that we invent new codes for our computers as we think of new ways to approach problems. C++ is arguably even more picky than its predecessors, but no-one says that it’s ungrammatical because it doesn’t follow the same rules as, say FORTRAN. So with wordplay: if we can find new ways to have fun with it, our ideas of how to apply the rules will change … as long as we’re genuinely having fun, obviously, and not breaking the rules just to be annoying …
Thanks Aoxo 😀
HH@48, personally I enjoy the smoother and more misleading surfaces that are made possible by allowing a bit of latitude with grammar. Evidently you don’t, and that’s OK. Again I am just asking that on the occasions when you do enjoy something, you consider mentioning it.
Boatman @53 – excellent point. I’ve found LISP programmers rather Ximenean in the past though…
Will this hedgehoggy person (sic) never give up.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that there is more than one “grammar” by which cryptic clues may be written. There is also more than one way of conflating the grammar of English English (as opposed to eg the grammars of American English or Pidgin – yet more grammars) with cryptic grammar. Sadly he/she??? has only read about one version.
A little knowledge is dangerous thing. Sapere aude.
There is nothing new about most of the devices used in today’s puzzle.
Here:
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1411495130.75532&user=dharrison&page=5
we see a typically intemperate attack on today’s setter by the usual suspect – but notice the phrase “the classical grammatical style” – intended to mislead the reader into thinking (as is done in the same writer’s Chambers Manual) that the broadly ximenean approach is the original and orthodox one. Anyone who has read Barnard’s 1963 book (three years before X and the Art) or was solving at the time would know that splitting words and “seeing through” punctuation and capitalisation was standard at that time.
Araucaria was not breaking any rules – he was maintaining consistency with a previously accepted standard. Ximeneanism was the innovation, arbitrarily disallowing various devices and using pejorative terms to denounce them as unfair, sloppy etc when in fact he was defining a simplified cluing grammar, specifically to allow for his barred grid puzzles being full of “dictionary words” and archaic spellings and to make his Everyman puzzles condescendingly easy.
In case you wonder HH, you have at least one ally.
I find your forensic analysis enlightening and educational.
We should all be able to comment in our own way, and there is no obligation to provide the sort of unctuous praise we see so often.
Might I also point out that I have never seen your contributions stoop to personal insult, which is more than can be said for some. I am often surprised that the moderator doesn’t comment.
I thought this was a gem – full of mischievous misdirection and tricky without ever being impossible. Last in was the brilliant FORENOON, also liked LASTLY, FORGET IT, PARROT and DOMAIN (admittedly I tend to think of DOMAINs in an IT context where it means something rather different).
Thanks to Boatman and PeterO
60 comments already – must be another argument involving the usual suspects…
Thanks jeceris 😀
I must get this Barnard book. Perhaps Jolly has a link.
I note, by the way, I’m now a ‘person (sic)’. Never mind, I’m sure I’ll shake it off soon enough 😀
jeceris @58 — you misunderstand if you think that I am asking HH to say anything that he/she doesn’t actually feel.
@ jeceris:
“Never stoops to personal insults”
How do you interpret…
“Apparently Boatman teaches compilers. OMG”
@42 Logophile
You’re not being fair – hh most definitely does say when he likes a crossword. However, those posts are much less fulsomely written than his critical ones, & attract less notice/comment since they are not in any way controversial.
Your comments (& those of some others) about hh’s posts would have been more applicable when he first started posting, but it is clear to me that he is now couching his comments more carefully.
Personally, I just skip through his ‘lists’ – I kinda know where he comes from, but I’m not so bothered about those types of quibbles – though I’m not at all surprised to see a ‘hh list’ on a Boatman blog – IME his puzzles generate more dispute than most compilers (viz 58 comments so far).
HH’s posts might be more pedantic than most, but a crossword blog site is never going to be short of pedants. IMHO there’s room for all views here, critical or not – having been on the receiving end of posts against me for simply expressing critical views of a puzzle, I have some sympathy for hh, even though I often may not agree with him.
I quite like that we can all get so riled up over “acquired” vs “to acquire”. It must be hilarious for non-crossworders though.
I don’t think they come here!
It’s OK to point out legitimate issues with clues, but HH repeatedly states personal preferences as negatives, and that’s what is so tiresome. The setters aren’t going to change to accommodate HH’s preferences, no matter how many times he/she asserts them.
Which begs the question – why keep posting the same complaints each time? Either stop doing crosswords which may contain these devices or stop complaining about them when they do. To keep doing them and keep complaining – when it’s clear it won’t make a jot of difference – seems either slightly mad, or intentionally annoying.
It’s like someone with a nut allergy eating products with warnings about possible traces of nuts repeatedly complaining when they get sick due to them containing nuts. They’ve only got themselves to blame. Stop eating, or stop complaining.
Without wanting to get dragged in to the same old debate, I think logophile @46 sums it up nicely – a crossword without entertainment could still be an academic challenge of sorts, but it isn’t what most of us look for in a Guardian puzzle – humour, misdirection, innovation, surprise and occasional rule-bending make them far more fun to solve.
Thanks to Boatman for dropping in to elucidate too.
@65 shikasta,
Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion re. HH’s comments, as I am entitled to mine. In my opinion, “Apparently Boatman teaches compilers. OMG!” is pretty harsh. I hope it’s clear to most that I was trying to be as nice as possible to someone whose comments routinely give me a pain (and make me sorry for any setter who stops by).
I’m going to give up now.
What a stinker to solve, glad this wasn’t set for tomorrow when I’m standing in for Scchua, re HH I usually completely disagree with his every complaint but as Voltaire says about fighting for your right to say it.
I’d like to know how poor grammar isn’t a ‘legitimate issue’ ðŸ™
I’m just pointing that stuff out, because for me THAT’S what’s tiresome! And as others say it’s not all the time. Brendan yesterday was brilliant, I had no problems and enjoyed the work of someone who can really write. All this fancy stuff we see usually but not always conceals bad craftsmanship in my view, and I don’t buy that it constitutes some New Way Forward that we can confidently follow. It’s just bad writing.
@70 logophile
I can understand that hh’s comments frequently give you a pain.
But he’s far from the 1st to express that opinion about Boatman here – & his comment is far less harsh than many I have seen on Boatman puzzles, including some from other compilers – as I said before, Boatman’s puzzles invariably create controversy, & he is often here defending his POV. To my mind, fair enough, isn’t that what this place is for?
@68 MarkN “HH repeatedly states personal preferences as negatives” – in his early posts, I would agree – now he does acknowledge his comments as personal opinions.
I first started frequenting such internet forums 15+ years ago, & have often come across forums where some people want there to be no negative comments & post against anyone who doesn’t fit with that desire – IME it makes for very anondyne environments.
But I’m sure setters have much thicker skins than logophile’s post implies – they certainly know that they will encounter pedantic critics & Boatman, for sure, has shown he is more than robust enough to cope – so, IMHO, no need to ‘feel sorry for them’
flashling @71 – re Voltaire, well said (and let’s forget his other famous quote “… pour encourager le autres”!) Yes, we all have the right to free speech, but that doesn’t mean any of us have to agree with those who argue from limited standpoints, or that it is rude to argue back from another.
My real initials are HH, so I find all these references to HH rather disconcerting!
“les autres” – I must learn to read my comments properly before submitting them…
Thanks to Boatman and PeterO
The RHS went in easily but most of the LHS was like drawing teeth; I didn’t understand quite how FORENOON worked (I missed the “disc” for O), DEVOURED or STATUTES (or AIR-TO-AIR on the other side).
There were several I liked. DOMAIN (LOI) raised a smile, even if it now seems there are doubts about the clue’s grammar. FORGET IT and 5d were also nice.
My main complaint I have voiced before. The long one was solvable from a hint in the clue (the two birds, in this case) and the word pattern. I did in fact try to work out what was being anagrammed, but failed.
I found this incredibly difficult and gave up after only getting two answers. Even the solution confused me in places. Chalk this one up to experience and move on.
Two things at this late hour.
One, I found this a really tough battle which my belated getting of the long clue only helped in part. The AIRTO guy didn’t help, of course (I tried to fit in RIO), and 26a and 9a were amongst those that gave me trouble – the latter though is a very fine clue.
Two, what fun to read the blog.
Coming in late to boast as one of the few to have heard of Airto, loved his music when I lived in Brazil in the nineties. I believe his name is a variant of the popular Ayrton (as in Senna) Anyway, the answer was perfectly gettable from the rest of the clue and a quick Google would then have introduced you to a great popular musician!
Top man, Airto. Serious discography.
I usually find this setter difficult and sometimes annoying in the way the blog points out, but,although this took me a long time to complete, I thought it rather good. I don’t want to get into all the controversies but I laughed out loud at DOMAIN and loved the use of AIRTO Moriera. I don’t think he’s that obscure but I suppose non jazzers might have a problem- rather like I have when sport rears its ugly head!
Perhaps I have (finally) got on Boatman’s wavelength.
PA – Excellent – glad you got there! See you again next time, then …
Thank you again Boatman. I enjoyed the puzzle to a certain extent, but wanted to comment on it more fully early in the afternoon. However, the time somehow did not seem appropriate and this evening Trailman’s comment @78 seemed a good ending to the day.
Somehow the puzzle fell flat for me, perhaps because the theme was in the clues as well as in the answers, for instance CANARY at 10a (cage). There was no ‘aah’ moment or feeling of discovery.
I am afraid this was the kind of Boatman puzzle that had its moments but I did not fully like.
Some of what hedgehoggy said made sense, some did not as the world of crosswords is an ever evolving universe.
‘So wrong’ as the anagram indicator in 12d is silly – it is indeed padding – but the splitting of home/work is, though debatable, something we got used to (mainly thanks to the Guardian – ‘you won’t see this in The Times’ as my PinC always says).
I guess, JS and my PinC shouldn’t be seen together at a S&B event anyway …. 🙂
Boatman’s reply to Don Manley’s valid point is rather feeble (“And – Don – let’s not argue about DOMAIN: your clue is much better than mine. Sometimes the old chestnuts just can’t be improved by further roasting … “). Just be creative and write a better clue!
That said, still a lot to enjoy.
Even if Boatman quoting me at his website (‘the B of my ABC’) doesn’t apply today.
Main gripe: “Flash, it’s first” (17ac) apparently being equal to “Flash, its first” (because we can ignore punctuation – can we? sometimes, yes, but always?) is the kind of thing I do not want to see.
Perhaps, the world of crosswords will go that way one day or another but I think Boatman’s gone way too far here.
For me, it is an example of abusing the English language as one of the building stones of writing crosswords.
Thanks, PeterO.
Wow, lots of comments and lively debate. I’m sure that the beginner would learn an awful lot from a study of these posts although some of the references might be a little obscure. (Obviously he wouldn’t learn as much as he does on a Monday with his prescribed Rufus 😉 )
I loved this although it did take a while. We are on the boat though so for the first 2 hours I was sorely distracted by the trash TV which my better half insists on watching.
Once peace was resumed I quickly brought the puzzle to a successful conclusion. I couldn’t parse AIR-TO-AIR although I did look up AIRTO in the SOED without success! I also failed to parse LASTLY because my mind had fixed on the idea that I was trying to get from GHASTLY to LASTLY which was beastly 🙂 .
I found the comments on computer grammar quite amusing. Computer grammar is very strict but very simple. A computer loads code from memory and executes this in a contextual way following the extremely strict rules of it’s instruction set. No ambiguity there at all.
Bizarrely the ambiguity of grammar in both crosswords and computers come from the same source. A compiler!
The computer compiler parses the poor programmer’s pathetic attempts at “code” and imposes it’s own grammar on them. This may or may not result in some machine code. Whether or not this will be successful depends on the accuracy of the compiler’s implementation. Of course the resulting machine code will always be “grammatically” correct but may not produce the results that were intended. As with crosswords, some compilers are better than others 😉
Thanks to PeterO and Boatman
Well thought I’d crack this as domain went in straight away which was my favourite Sadly went downhill after that I hated that I thought it was kill two birds with one stone and was thrown completely because of ones and tone it may be acceptable but I disagree. I struggled on but failed to finish up the creek without a paddle which I suppose is appropriate today. Thank you Boatman and the Don for dropping in. By the way I agree with Hedgehoggy grammar is very important . I loved all the comments. Thanks everyone.
Rather than that strange division of the light at 2D, he could have clued 22,11,2,13 as “Yell so loudly that two parrots expire? (4,3,5,4,4,4)
I’ll get me coat.
So, just as well I didn’t raise his head over the parapet about grammar! What do I know about the language? After 45 years of making the unintelligible intelligible to people who want to understand what they are reading, I will have to take it on the excellent authority of a far-from-jolly fellow that my career has been in vain! I shall celebrate immediately by writing that its neither here nor there and that a leopard must learn to change it’s spots, eh?
Oh dear Don! Don’t let it get to you. Before you know it you’ll be believing that you are right an everybody else is wrong!
I certainly believe that’s true in my case 😉
DON!!!!! “its spots”, not “it’s spots”.
Horrors!
As I say earlier in the sentence, its neither here not there!
Touché, Don!
hedgehoggy. Please keep up the good work, you make my morning much better. This morning I particularly enjoyed your jump in comments about 14a from “nonsense” to “fair enough”. Unfortunately it didn’t do too much for your credibility.
hedgehoggy. I also disagree with you about 9a, but don’t have the energy to explain it to you.
Well I’ll just have to stew I guess. And I’d love to know why that clue is in any way okay.
14a, yes, I’m a goner 😀
hedgehoggy Proving you are not a troll with your comments about 14a.
So with 9a can we agree the surface reads well? So I think you are saying that ‘dance’ in ‘dove dance’ is not an acceptable indicator and that it should be ‘dove dances’. Is that correct?
If so I’m regretting my second post. It is just a matter of opinion again ‘dove dance’ works for me, but not for you.
Keep up the good work. You annoy a few people and actually I thought your comments about Boatman teaching was unnecessarily harsh, but on the whole you I find you a welcome contributor.
I didn’t think this puzzle was very good. And I have every sympathy for the other people here who think as I do and yet are savaged for voicing their opinions
The voice of verboten may seem familiar but if you google:
site:fifteensquared.net “verboten says”
you will find that verboten has only ever made four other posts – all Boatman puzzles – nearly all critical.
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/09/19/guardian-26369-boatman/
Incorrect attempt to criticise a part of speech difference – corrected by Eileen.
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/10/31/guardian-26405-by-boatman/
Criticism, “lazy cluing” mainly of “apology” as an anagrind
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/04/24/guardian-26242-boatman/
Neutral explanation of something missed by the blogger (which had already been explained earlier) – the exception
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/11/27/guardian-26428-by-boatman/
Here’s that one in full:
JS – impressive research, but Google has missed this one:
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/04/24/guardian-26242-boatman/
I must admit that “I have every sympathy for the other people here who think as I do and yet are savaged for voicing their opinions” amused me – it seems to me that those who couch their opinions most extremely are the first to react with outrage to any perceived criticism…
sorry – just realised that the list wasn’t in chronological order!
Thanks Boatman and PeterO
Wow … over 100 posts … don’t think that I’ve seen that before!
Actually completed this on the day, but was focused on landing a new contract which I did today :).
Found this a little easier than normal for Boatman – I typically struggle for quite a long time with him. Finished up with DOMAIN, AHOY THERE and DEVOURED as the last few in.
Guess that I’m a ‘liberal’ solver – I don’t care all that much about syntax or grammar of the clue structure – more that it is just a clue for me to get an answer to write in – if there is humour or extra cleverness that I see with the delivery of the clue, then that is a bonus. My quest is to just fill in the grid with what these guys started with.
Here I did find that humour and cleverness – so thank you Boatman! And look forward to your next challenge !
bruce @101 – this hasn’t quite matched this one yet (and much of the argument then was very similar):
http://www.fifteensquared.net/2014/12/19/guardian-cryptic-26447-philistine/
brucew – hear, hear!