I know that Otterden has plenty of admirers here but regular readers will know that he does not feature in my long list of favourite setters and so I have followed Qaos’ advice to one of the commenters here to attempt to find something positive to say for each comment that is less so – or, in some cases, simply to resist adding a negative comment.
The special instructions told us that five across clues led to the names, not further defined, of the working partners of entertainers in the same line of business. The ‘working partners’ fairly quickly emerged as ventriloquists’ dummies, which, I’m afraid, did nothing at all to endear the puzzle to me, as I disliked that form of ‘entertainment’ even as a child. I usually quite enjoy hunting down links for the blog but not this time. However, I persevered, because some of them go rather far back – in fact, only one of the ventriloquists is still with us – so I’m not sure they’re going to be familiar to younger solvers.
The puzzle took me about twice as long as usual to solve – and then there was the parsing of some of the answers! Ever since I started blogging, I’ve made it a rule not to ask for help when blogging a puzzle but, to my chagrin, this time I really had to use a figurative ‘phone-a-friend’ lifeline for the parsing of 7dn. [I couldn’t believe the ‘answer’ and would never have got it, no matter how long I’d tried, so I feel little shame in having had to ask [see below] – but many thanks, all the same, Gaufrid! đ ]
Thanks to Otterden for the challenge.
Across
5 Liverpool losing poor first half dismally (7)
ORVILLE [partner Keith Harris]
Anagram [dismally] of LIVER[po]OL minus the first half of ‘poor’
10,29 Received praise for Rachel’s new look (4,7)
LORD CHARLES [partner Ray Alan]
LORD – sounds like [received] ‘laud’ [praise] + an anagram [new look] of RACHEL’S – a nice surface
11 Almost ready for the table, joining the fish? (5,5)
GOING UNDER
Double / cryptic definition: going under an anaesthetic would make one almost ready for the [operating] table: I presume ‘joining the fish’ must mean going under water but it’s not an expression I’ve come across
12 Mug made of crude copper taking a very long time (6)
PIGEON
PIG [crude slang for policeman – copper] + EON [a very long time]
13 Hit with blow from the side of the hand involves the start of bleeding (4,4)
LAMB CHOP [partner Shari Lewis]
LAM [hit] + CHOP [blow from the side of the hand, as in karate] round B[leeding]
14 What to wear to finish convention (5,4)
DRESS CODE
DRESS [put a finish on, eg, stone, like the Swaledale fossil stone tomb which I viewed and touched on the day I solved this puzzle – the day after it was revealed, at the end of quite a week for my home city] + CODE [convention: rather weak, I thought, because surely this is the same sense as in the solution – or is it intended as an &lit?]
16 At home French donkey is asinine (5)
INANE
IN [at home] + ÂNE [French for donkey] – and asinine, of course, literally means ‘like a donkey’ [from Latin asinus – hence the circumflex]
17,1 Nylon line gets tangled around some itinerant herons (5,3,4)
LENNY THE LION [partner Terry Hall]
Anagram [tangled] of NYLON LINE round some of itineranT HErons – an innovative / eccentric way of cluing ‘the’, the ‘itinerant herons’ rather ridiculously reminding me of Eric Cantona’s mystical seagulls…
19 Angel lies about having godlike attributes (3-6)
ALL-SEEING
Anagram [about] of ANGEL LIES – I’m not sure why ‘attributes’ is plural
23 It can come after Michaelmas time of year (5,3)
DAISY MAY [partner Albert Saveen]
[Michaelmas] DAISY + MAY [time of year]
24 Bush‘s former presidential familiar has back trouble (6)
ABELIA
ABE [former presidential familiar] + a reversal [back] of AIL [trouble]
26 Clan gets rich on proceeds from water in the Highlands (4,6)
LOCH CRINAN
Anagram [proceeds from] of CLAN + RICH ON
27 Inlet loses initial smell (4)
REEK
[c]REEK [inlet]
28 Formerly drab writer cut (7)
TROLLOP
[Anthony] TROLLOP[e] [writer cut] – drab is an archaic word for a prostitute
Down
2 Indianan mostly more difficult to please (7)
HOOSIER
[c]HOOSIER [more difficult to please]: fortunately, I stayed in Indiana in the 1970s and learned that it was the Hoosier state [various explanations here] – otherwise, I would have been struggling
3 Get stuck quite often by the main gates (5)
LODGE
Double definition – second a bit loose
4 Structural feature of churches I start to contemplate (7)
ORGANIC
ORGAN [feature of churches – again, why plural, I wonder?] + I + initial letter [start] of C[ontemplate]
6 Elite runners shamefully emigrate after missing opening parts of athletics tournament (6)
RÉGIME
Anagram [shamefully] of EMIGR[at]E minus the initial letters of [a]thletics [t]ournament: this is an excellent surface and I can see why Otterden wanted to use ‘élite runners’ but I found it rather puzzling as a definition – I suppose a régime runs a country and ‘élite’ comes from the same root as ‘ elected’, so it’s probably rather clever …
7 21 down cannot possibly be heard (9)
INNOCENCE
This is where I met my Waterloo: apparently, it sounds like [heard] ‘In no sense’ [which it doesn’t, at all, to me] which, apparently, equates to ‘cannot possibly be’, which, again, certainly doesn’t work for me. I had already thought that this pair of clues was rather unfair, since, although they are synonyms of each other, neither has a definition – so, for me, a poor clue on three counts, I’m afraid. [Or sour grapes. đ ]
8 Rest of old wine gets drunk (3,4)
LIE DOWN
Anagram [gets drunk] of OLD WINE – now that really is a lovely clue!
9 Stripped smart car at yard being joined together just messing about! (5-8)
DILLY-DALLYING
[ca]DILL[ac] [smart car ‘stripped’] + YD [yard] + ALLYING [being joined together]
15 Steward seen to clash with new order (9)
SENESCHAL
Anagram [new order] of SEEN and CLASH – another nice surface
18 Our name fails to gain entrance (7)
ENAMOUR
Anagram [fails] of OUR NAME: ironically, I liked this clue, which gave me a wry smile, considering my reaction to seeing the name on this puzzle.
20 Firm to stop the flow (7)
STAUNCH
Double definition
21 7 in a foreign check point (7)
NAĎVETÉ
Anagram [foreign: this is an indicator I really don’t like – although it could be argued that it is appropriate since the solution is a foreign word] of IN A + VET [check] + E [point]
22 Suspect more by stage one (6)
EMBRYO
Anagram [suspect] of MORE BY
25 Mistake not to introduce troublesome child (5)
ERROR
[t]ERROR [troublesome child – without introduction] – a real chestnut to end on
This was my first puzzle in quite a while that resulted in complete surrender. I filled perhaps half the grid, if I recall correctly. And just to be sure, I put it down and tried again on Sunday, with no better luck. Did not cotton onto the theme, either–I’d filled in “Orville,” wondering who that might be, but got no farther with theme entries.
I know of Lamb Chop, but none of the rest of the puppets. In the church I used to attend when I was a child, there was an organist/choral director that my mom referred to as Lamb Chop, because she sounded like Shari Lewis’s voice when impersonating her sheep sock puppet. Occasionally, the choir director had to fill in if a cantor was out sick, and my mom would always mutter, “Oh, no–here comes Lamb Chop.”
(It was only some years later that Shari Lewis got her own kids’ show–well after I’d grown too old for children’s TV. But I did catch an episode or two over the years.)
Thanks Eileen for this difficult task.
When, last Saturday, I did this puzzle I found it a very annoying thing.
Of course, all these ventri-objects I didn’t know (because it’s not something of My World) but I got there after asking Mrs Wiki.
An hour after completion I looked at it again and I felt a bit better.
There is quite a lot one can complain about, certainly from a technical point of view.
(and I am sure Jolly Swagman will overrule me here)
Yet, I am a bit milder now.
Otterden is just not ye average setter.
It’s more about allusion than perfection.
Perhaps for some that’s what crosswords are all about.
Anyway.
I would like to say something about two clues.
I think in 7d the ‘definition’ is “cannot possibly be heard”, ‘heard’ being essential as hearing is one of the senses.
But I sympathise with your interpretation of the homophone.
17,1 (LENNY THE LION) has a two-stage construction which I quite like. Nobody looking for a 3-letter word would have problems with THE for ‘some itinerant heroes’ if that were the only thing we’re looking for. But see, Otterden puts one device inside another which is novel (at least to me).
Also, I did have no problems with ‘foreign’ as anagram indicator at all (21d) but in other clues I thought ‘pfff’.
Once again, I don’t know what to think.
Well I do know (I don’t like this style of cluing) but on the other hand some solvers might like this kind of loose type of crosswords.
Otterden is a disturbing setter for those who think about crosswords and not just solve them.
Let’s leave it there.
Thanks Eileen – and Otterden; I do not think that I would have had to make such a heroic effort to avoid the negative.
I also find ventriloquism a rather strange pursuit, never more so than in Educating Archie on the radio!
I think the second definition in 11A is intended to evoke “sleeping with the fishes”, and the Godfather.
25D is indeed a chestnut, and was seen in last Monday’s Quiptic, a more suitable home for it.
Daisy May is pretty obscure in this boring theme. Patsy May brings better luck on Googling but doesnt parse.
I dont like the use of “pig”. I think the cluing of “the” in Lenny the Lion ridiculous. The Trollop(e) clue was appalling.
And then there was Monk in the Indy.Never easy but perfect construction. Chalk and cheese really.
Thanks Eileen. ENAMOUR was one of my first but to the end it niggled: couldnt make the entrance noun/verb work with gain. Googling LORD CHARLES because it fitted, there was the character and the theme. Getting the rest was tricky, having vaguely heard only of 17,1 but no others. SE corner hardest and last; aid sought only to verify.
Thank Eileen (and Mr. Holt)
ORVILLE went straight in, so there was the theme. A bit of Googling made it an easy solve, but far from enjoyable. I agree with copmus – the “the” in LENNY THE LION was simply awful.
I did like LIE DOWN and EMBRYO.
This was quite a challenge for me – only 3 of the dummies were familiar to me – I’d never heard of LAMB CHOP or DAISY MAY, and I think the theme would challenge anyone under 40. I’m afraid for me ventriloquism is just one of those best forgotten elements of the “golden age of light entertainment” that we all had to suffer when there were only 3 channels on TV.
As for the crossword, I enjoyed parts of it – definitely prefer Otterden when he’s not too easy…
Thanks to Eileen and Otterden
I vaguely remember “Educating Archie” This was even weirder – ventriloquism on the radio!
Very many thanks Otterden & Eileen
For me, this was a real struggle as I was not familiar with the names of any of the Dummies except Orville and that was my last in.
After getting DAISY MAY early on, Google identified her as a Dummy but the others did not come easily or quickly.
Even after getting LAMB CHOP, it took me ages to discover that this was another Dummy.
However, I did get there in the end and I certainly enjoyed the challenge. So no complaints from me.
I always write down my comments for the Prize on completing it. I was so underwhelmed by this offering that this is all I came up with.
Some dodgy definitions and overall very clunky.
Had the feel of a bygone age.
However very easy for a weekend.
My only further comment is I don’t understand why this was “chosen” as a Prize Puzzle?
Thanks to Eileen and Otterden
Thanks Otterden, not really my cup of tea but I did know ORVILLE and LENNY THE LION.
Bad luck Eileen, unknowns for me were LORD CHARLES, LAMB CHOP, SENESCHAL, LOCH CRINAN & HOOSIER….. but Google came to the rescue. INNOCENCE to me does sound like ‘in no sense’ if you say it slowly. It’s the usual problem with homophones.
I didn’t really mind ‘some itinerant herons.’ I liked the clue for LORD CHARLES, in retrospect.
I quite enjoyed this puzzle although the theme was quite obscure. I did know all the themed answers (sorry) although the name Saveen had been erased from my memory. I particularly liked LIE DOWN and EMBRYO although I didn’t like the 7 21 loop.
Thanks to Otterden for his efforts here. It just shows that you can’t please everyone and that solvers generally get miffed if a theme is not to their liking.
I didn’t find this as annoying as plenty of you seem to have done, and the only clue I needed aids to solve was 26ac where I needed to check if the second word of the answer was “Crinan” or “Cranin”.
Thanks Otterden and Eileen. I didn’t have any major problems with this, though had to resort to Google for Daisy May. I liked the itinerant herons.
I didn’t find this anything like as unsatisfying as some of you did and I don’t see why using ventriloquist’s dummies is somehow unacceptable because some of you don’t like ventriloquism as entertainment. I don’t like(say) football or opera but I wouldn’t say they should be off limits.
ORVILLE gave me the theme and the others went in quite easily- I hadn’t remembered DAISY MAY however.
Like Andy B, I had never heard of LOCH CRINAN and had to look it up,and I couldn’t parse DILLY DALLYING. I had no problem with INNOCENCE or, indeed, any of the others.
As to ventriloquists, Nina Conte does quite a good turn!
Thanks Otterden.
Thanks Otterden and Eileen.
The name LENNY THE LION was familiar, but otherwise the ventriloquists/dummies were new, although I can remember “Educating Archie”. Also new were HOOSTER and LOCH CRINAN.
I needed help with parsing DILLY-DALLYING. I did like EMBRYO, SENESCHAL and LIE DOWN.
PeterO @3
Sorry, I missed your reference to Archie, hence my unnecessary comment @8.
I was able to have a dummy run at this.
(I wasn’t actually, but just thought I’d say that.)
Lots of, um, distinctive technical nuances here, and having but a sketchy memory of the artistes in question didn’t help.
For US solvers (of a certain age) the big name among ventriloquists is Edgar Bergen (Charlie McCarthy, Mortimer Snerd) whereas only Lambchop is familiar (so that the “Lord” in Lord Charles defeated me). That’s not a complaint, however, because as a non-native speaker I expect to be “puzzled” by such items (examples include Chiantishire, Her Indoors). I’ve been doing cryptics since the 1980s (originally from books purchased during a yearly UK visit), then belatedly from the Guardian on-line, and just recently discovered this blog. Many thanks to Eileen and other explicators-parsers from whom I have learned much (e.g., sa as sex appeal).
Well, I am definitely not among the naysayers: I thought it was a lot of fun. Most of the dummies sounded vaguely familiar, but ventriloquism definitely isn’t my specialist subject. I found that everything could be worked out except for CRINAN/CRANIN which, like Andy B and Peter A, I had to look up. Many thanks to Otterden and Eileen.
I don’t particularly look forward to Otterden, but this was a very pleasant surprise. I rather like it, within reason, when I don’t actually know much about the theme and have to work at the cryptic clues a bit to find plausible answers, and I’m quite a fan of oddities like self-referential pairs of clues (Araucaria did them too) like 21d and 7d. Although there certainly was some stretchy use of language, I actually thought 7d was all right – if, that is you accept the word-splitting device. Then you can read it as “(Naivete) can ‘not possibly” be heard” – not very standard word order (and perhaps a question might have been an option?), but only modestly Otterdenian on that reading.
He can still seem a rather awkward solve, but I thought he really upped his game for this.
Peter @ 15: I don’t think anyone’s saying that ventriloquism should be off-limits for a puzzle. Instead, what I think they’re saying is that—well, let me just speak for myself. Puzzles with a theme drawn from cultural knowledge bring a smile of recognition if you know and like that bit of the culture. If you know it but don’t like it, the answers go in, but it’s not as much fun. And if you don’t know it, you’re just plain baffled, or forced to Google, neither of which is any fun at all.
For example: You say you don’t like opera. I do. I would probably get a big kick out of it, if a couple operas went in as answers early, and I’d be led on a merry chase finding all the other operas. For you, you’d put in LA TRAVIATA and CARMEN easily enough, I’m sure, but then when you discovered you needed PAGLIACCI, L’ELISIR D’AMORE, or JENUFA, you might be a bit peeved, no?
In short, there’s nothing wrong with the puzzle, it’s just that it’s not a good fit with this particular solver. (I’m 40 and American, which means that I had (till yesterday) zero knowledge of British ventriloquism. That clearly had something to do with it. Again—not a complaint, just an observation.)
(Random aside on L’Elisir D’Amore: if a setter wanted to use that as an answer, how would she indicate the apostrophes? Or would she?)
mrpenney @22
Apostrophes are a contentious topic. The Guardian ignores them in numeration – your example would be given as (7,6) (rather to my annoyance).
muffin @23, I agree, there was an Irish name recently, say O’Connor, given as (7), but (1’6) would be perfectly possible. Likewise L’Elisir D’Amore could be (1’6,1’5). After all DILLY-DALLYING is given as (5-8).
Cruciverbalism for Dummies it may be but I very much enjoyed this. I found it clearly and precisely clued although I was surprised by the age of the dummies. You probably have to be a pensioner like me to remember them all. The only thing I had to guess was the position of the vowels in the Scottish Loch
ACD @19
Welcome to the site! I hope we’ll hear more from you.
As a Saturday-only solver I don’t remember seeing many Otterden puzzles before. I quite liked this one. It’s a welcome change to have a theme that isn’t opera or musicals or geography!
Having got Orville I guessed “dummies” but couldn’t think of any other ones off the top of my head. Which was great as there were no write-ins. I did recognise most of them as I got them, except for Daisy May.
My one complaint would be 7 and 21 down defining each other.
Thanks again Eileen, just remembered, I took ‘convention’ in the clue 14a to mean a ‘conference’,
this would not have the same sense as CODE in the answer?
[The Guardian Weekly has an interesting article on Richard III, “Britain mourns a monster”.]
Eileen@26
Thanks for the welcome. I normally don’t get to the weekday puzzle in time to post a comment, but I’m content to be a lurker. I remain fascinated by UK vs. US usage (“prang” is my pet example) and the cultural divide (two great countries separated by a common language – attributed to Shaw among others). Both the puzzles and the blog are part of my education.
I am with ACD (and mrpenney) across the pond yet always fascinated by the nuances of meaning of words.
My only acquaintance with the topic was Lamb Chop–so the Google machine helped with the other four.
I, too, was tripped up by Lord Charles. I thought it was Good. Somewhat reasonable for praise. I still get caught by the homophones!
Eileen, I used to live in Indiana in the 70s, so Hoosier was my FOI. In fact I had to scratch my head at Indianan. Not something you hear around here.
Thanks, Eileen, for this blog. And thanks to Ottersen for a good mental workout.
Footage of Albert Saveen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0T3STTzvA Not a little bizarre……..And didn’t like the crozzie much either.
Thanks, smoz @31.
Yes, that’s actually the link that I gave in the blog – I couldn’t fnd a YouTube one of Daisy May.
Ilene @ 30: Although I’ve lived in Chicago for the last dozen years, I still think of myself as a native Hoosier. I spent my first 18 years living there; my parents are still there. I even work there still (I’m a reverse commuter).
I agree that “Indianan” isn’t a real word. I know the dictionary is okay with it, but the word is Hoosier. No Hoosier has ever uttered the word “Indianan,” except with the word “not” in front of it.
Thanks Otterden and Eileen
Thoroughly enjoyed this … knew nothing of the unique theme characters – which meant looking them up after working them out. I think that they were all quite fairly clued so that one could derive the solution from the cryptic part.
The unknown theme subject matter and some of the innovative (and yes, quirky) devices that were used gave this puzzle the grist to make it a very worthwhile prize puzzle for me. There were a number of ‘aha’ moments that came when the clue unraveled – the best example was the 7 / 21 clues which were probably my favourites when the penny dropped to what was happening. Also liked what was going on with the anagram fodder of 17,1.
Having CADILLAC as a smart car was my biggest challenge -assume its for the announced 2017 model. A few new learnings with this meaning of ‘drab’ and the French word for donkey
I know that this setter is seemingly controversial with others here, but this warmed me up to him a lot and was his best offering to date in my opinion.
(A late contribution but I would like to echo PA@15.
Nina Conti – daughter of the actor Tom – is a ridiculously talented and extremely funny ventriloquist. There are clearly a lot of contributors to the site who don’t like ventriloquists but – as they say – check her out)
MrPenney @22. Well no, I wouldn’t be at all peeved. I might find it more difficult but I’d use Mr Google and when I’d found the answer- which,assuming the cluing was appropriate I’d be able to do- I’d have learnt something. That my new knowledge would only be of use in solving crosswords is, of course, another matter.