Guardian 28,150 / Puck

93 comments on “Guardian 28,150 / Puck”

1. Not sure about the marmite analogy given the almost universally negative reaction on the Guardian site. I though EIGHT OUT OF TEN CATS was a cute bit of misdirection given the theme. And that’s about the only positive I can come up with at this point. I thought it was the worst puzzle I’ve ever encountered (Maskarade specials excepted)

2. Thanks Eileen, there were a couple of clues I didn’t understand (Sleep= dancer) or parse (NINETY). ALthough I didn’t know re Wayne Sleep, I did enjoy the word play of the clue and indeed, did think of Hamlet
   A chewy puzzle with a musical I have never heard of (DEAR EVAN HANSEN), so thanks to Google. NHO divagate, but the clue was very straight forward – what else could it have been.
   BTW, there is a typo in 8ac- you mean NELIS not NERIS.
   Thanks for the ever helpful and informative blog and thanks to Puck for the fun

3. To be fair, DEAR EVAN HANSEN was the only musical I was unfamiliar with, but I needed a lot of shortcuts to finish this one and didn’t enjoy it as much as most Puck puzzles. TENABLE was last in – didn’t recognise that show either.

   Thanks to Puck and Eileen

4. Thanks, ngaio @2 – amended now.

5. I quite enjoyed it, but without google to help on unknown (to me) words (divagate, nelis, knobkerrie, strophe, syringa) and musicals (Dear Evan Hansen, Hamilton) and TV show (Tenable) it would have been an unsatisfying DNF.  As soon as I saw Eileen’s reference to marmite, I thought “spot on”, but I liked it (and like marmite!).  Thanks to Eileen also for the parsing of 22d which I missed.

6. Never heard of Dear Evan Hansen, but can be derived from the clue. Also failed to parse ‘sixty’ which, now I know the explanation, I think is an excellent clue.

   Regarding the ‘marmite’ nature of the puzzle, I feel that contributors to The Guardian blog and Fifteensquared tend to be rather different (although some, of course, post on both sites),  and I suspect that the latter group may be more comfortable with the puzzle.

7. (I can’t believe that at twenty past ten BST I’m the first to comment here.) Anyway, I found this to be a joyless slog. This puzzle is further evidence (for me) that composing stylish and teasing clues while managing to pursue a nina or theme is a feat that few setters can pull off successfully. The encyclopedic quibble over SYRINGA was slightly annoying. All the other clues could be considered technically and logically acceptable — but to me they felt strained. Just to take one example, from many, the Hamlet allusion in 23d was highlighted as a “clever” distraction by our blogger, but in what way did it work as a distractor? It was just a random bit of nothing in particular, as if the word “sleep” simply triggered the Hamlet phrase in the setter’s mind. Meh.

8. Thanks both. Got through most of this, then came to a halt at 2,13d. Had the anagram fodder and all the crossers, but having never heard of the musical had to give up and reveal. According to Professor Google it has won lots of awards and has been in the West End, so maybe I should know it.

9. Ta Eilenn, helpful and informative as ever.

   Re the puzzle, ditto to what wooden_tree says.

10. I didn’t enjoy this at all. Hadn’t heard of 2, 13 or 16. Divagate and strophe were new to me. I should have worked out divagate. I’m not keen on the single letters such as L for lecturer and N for newspaper, though I’m sure they are listed somewhere. I thought XC for ninety was clever. But overall not much fun.Thanks, Eileen, for the blog and Puck for the puzzle.

11. Didn’t notice the error in 28a – one for the pedants perhaps

12. Hmmm. I’m all for learning new things from puzzles, even if they seem to be utterly irrelevant and will never be used again. However, cluing unfamiliar words (“strophe”, “dear evan hansen”) as anagrams is as Pointless as naming shows lots of people have never heard of. At best you make a plausible guess based on the letters and known common digraphs but you can never really feel you’ve solved the puzzle. By contrast “divagate” was a perfect way to clue a word new to 99% of solvers. Even “tenable” came with one crosser (the “e” – after that it could only be “ten” and then the last bit dropped in).

    Some of the other general knowledge of musicals was hardly esoteric – “cats”, “les mis” and “hair” (which I am too young for but it is a crossword classic). But the factual accuracy of both “syringa” and “great auk” is questionable which detracts from the pleasure and the solvability. There was lots to like here but too much to dislike which spoiled the overall effect.

    Thank you Eileen for “ninety” which I had not parsed and now rather like! And thank you Puck for the stab at some light entertainment.

13. Morning all, my first ever post though i have been an enthusiastic lurker of lockdown late. I’m going to stick up for this puzzle (though I strongly dislike Marmite). I usually don’t look at the btl comments until I get a bit stuck and only had my first peek whilst I was maybe just over 50% done. Had I read them before starting I probably would’ve decided it was too obscure or trick(s)y, but in truth I really enjoyed this. Had to google both tenable and strophe, neither of which I’d heard of before (but had managed to parse). I can see how it’s not to everyone’s taste, and is clearly rather UK(or even West End)-centric in terms of some of the references, but I completed it (which certainly doesn’t always happen) and I am kind of mid-level, I guess.

    So, my thanks to Puck, to Eileen and more generally this community who have provided much of both interest and balm in the past 2 months. Cheers!

14. Fairly enjoyable and straightforward, 1d aside, even though musicals are not my bag; I always found them a faintly ludicrous concept.  Who could fail to smile at 11ac?  Answers on a postcard please.  I did waste a minute trying to get cock into Kerry, as it were, but Enrico prevented me.  I liked 23d.  Thanks both.

15. Well after much expletiving about musicals and game shows, it was indeed the devious non-themer XC that was loi! That said, I confess to having loved (the missing) Oklahoma at age 10, and we have seen Hair, Les Mis and Phantom, and have been subjected to JCSuper, Joseph’s MCD, inter alia, via the kids. All part of the zeitgeist, can’t grumble. So no, enjoyed it despite myself and despite having to grind out the unknown anas. Thanks Puck and thanks Eileen (no G&S…loved the story of you in grass skirt!).

16. pserve_p2 @7 and TheZed @12 – to be fair, the clue for 20dn was absolutely accurate: both dictionaries have SYRINGA = [mock] orange or lilac, as I said in the blog. The ‘encyclopaedic quibble’ [which was actually merely an observation], was my own red herring.  I questioned the wisdom of including it, as I said and shall now delete it, to avoid any more unjustified criticism of the setter.

    Shirl @8 – like you, I was surprised to read about the number of awards / nominations when I googled it: seeing others’ reactions, I’m not so ashamed of not having heard of it.

    wonderstevie @13 – Welcome! And many thanks for your positive comment.

17. I have mixed feelings about the puzzle (and I usually like Puck).

    But I loved the blog!!

18. Afraid that musicals and game shows have never been my kind of thing, so approached this with a singular lack of enthusiasm. Struggled therefore with a few of these, and did a lot of googling before I finally got there.

19. I told my partner that there would be a lot of moans about this puzzle, so I’m feeling smug. So many quibbles and obscurities, but the use of ‘former flyer’ to define a flightless bird sums it up. Not fun, sorry.

20. Well, I got the theme very quickly!

    After that, it was a struggle and I gave up. I do admire a compiler who can weave in lots of links but this was too much of a song and dance for me.

21. Gave up on this with 13 clues filled in. Not enough time in the day. I’m definitely a Vegemite fellow. Thanks, Eileen for untangling some of the obscurities – but (as I type) NINETY lacks the clue and clue number in the blog.

22. Ron and Eth must have been borrowed from The Glums by the Carry On team, in the repeated scenes where Ron keeps saying “Take them off, Eth” and she, indignant, keeps saying “No, Ron” and then finally “No, Ron, I can’t see without them”.

23. I have very little knowledge of musicals, but I also have very little knowledge of astronomy, higher mathematics or opera and that never stops me from having a crack at the clues.
    I found this a challenging but ultimately very enjoyable solve, so thanks to Puck for the entertainment and to Eileen for the usual concise blog, especially the parsing of 22, which I just couldn’t fathom.

24. Welcome wonderstevie @13. I agree with you, the puzzle is worth sticking up for. Why shouldn’t our general knowledge be stretched as well as our logical and deductive powers? No need to get ‘uptight – everything is all right’!

    That said, I agree with Oofyprosser @19. The bird never flew, so to use ‘flyer’, the hackneyed crossword term for ‘bird’, is plain inept.

    Thanks Eileen for the blog, and thanks Puck – despite the ‘aukward’ 28a!

25. Always the contrarian, following the previous two sad write-ins I thought this was easily the best puzzle in a while, though I suspected that the parsing-police would make a meal of it. Challenging and amusing, it provided many laughs.  I knew none of the musicals, but all were solvable from the clues.  EVAN HANSEN was my LOI, and held me up for a while, but I made a likely guess from the anagram, and Mr G confirmed my solution.

26. I could cop out and just say ‘what copmus said’, but I’ll be frank and say this fell flat for me. I don’t know musicals, and I don’t look things up for weekday puzzles (I prefer to struggle or whizz through them without doing so).
    I absolutely needed DEAR EVAN HANSEN in order to complete the bottom left of the puzzle, but I haven’t heard of that, RENT or HAMILTON. I got HAMILTON and guessed DIVAGATE, but there were still some gaps in my grid at the finish. I should have got SYRINGA and GREAT AUK but couldn’t think of ‘grey’ for ‘dull’.
    I still enjoyed many good clues in my mini-experience. Many thanks to Puck and Eileen.

27. I saw the comments at Guardian blog, so I knew there was a lot of GK. I had to guess then google ‘panel show eight’ to solve 19/9/26. Never heard of that show – but that is mainly because I almost never watch TV. Ditto TENABLE game show.
    Could not parse 22d NINETY, 8a WINE LIST, knobkerrie.
    New SYRINGA, DEAR EVAN HANSEN, knobkerrie.
    Failed to solve 23d DANCER.

    This would have been good as a Prize puzzle.

    Thanks Puck and Eileen.

28. What a contrast! Yesterday’s enjoyable experience, today’s Misérable por moi.

29. TassieTim @21 – my apologies: I accidentally deleted that line when I amended 20dn – restored now

30. Marmite? Well, I’m one of those people who can take it or leave it, and I felt pretty much the same about this puzzle. Better than Monday, not as good as Tuesday. Themed puzzles can be a little forced at times, and so it felt here. Rather clever though that a couple of TV game shows found their way in.

    Must be a sign of the times that I’m a fan of musicals but I’ve only seen one of these, LES MIS. The LHS gave me more problems than the right simply because I had somehow missed all the reviews of DEAR EVAN HANSEN, and though I think I remember now the poster from escalators on the tube, that was so long ago as to be in another lifetime.

31. Eileen@16, when deleting your comments on syringa, it seems that the number and clue for 22dn (ninety) may also have been deleted. I only mention this in view of recent comments on how useful it is to have the clues set out in old blogs!

32. JudithG @31 – thanks [but see comments 21and 29 😉 ]

33. At a stretch, at some point in it’s evolution, presumably the forbears of the great auk could fly – so it’s a former flyer. Penguins lost the ability to fly (traded the ability in favour of improved fishing capability) some 70 MYA, probably the same for the great auks.

34. Thanks to Eileen for the excellent blog (as per usual) and to others for your comments.

    My apologies for the error in the clue for 28 across.

    This really does seem to have been a Marmite puzzle, with not too many liking Marmite!

    I was probably thinking that solvers might like something a bit more chewy during the lockdown, not knowing then that easing would have started by the time the puzzle appeared.

35. 23d made me wonder if school can be applied Perch (or to freshwater fish in general)?

    Some clever clueing and a couple of new words couldn’t save this from being an uninspiring chore for me.

    Thanks to Puck and Eileen.

36. Many thanks for dropping in, Puck – always appreciated.

37. I know virtually nothing about musicals so this was very hard work, but satisfying to finish. Had to look up NELIS and DEAR EVAN HANSEN; never heard of this, nor TENABLE. Like bodycheetah@1 I’m not keen on Maskarade specials, but I enjoyed this as a one-off. I liked FAG END; couldn’t parse NINETY – thanks to Eileen and Puck.

38. I like musicals so that helped a bit and it took me far too long to see Dear Evan Hansen – but as a show that’s only been around a few years and only int he UK for a few months it seems quite specific GK for a standard puzzle.

    I think the musical specific knowledge, and the fact some answers are musicals where other times part of the answer is one, plus other GK required and a smattering of words that I’d guess are unknown to many (I didn’t know KNOBKERRIE, DIVAGATE, SYRINGA, STROPHE and GREAT AUK) did make this quite the challenge. And yet every time I was about to resort to cheating, I’d get one more from the wordplay and so I did eventually get there with plenty of google verification along the way (I did have NINETY without parsing but if it’s in, it counts, right?!)

    Thanks Puck for the stuff challenge and Eileen for the blog.

39. I managed to get there, but my goodness, what a struggle! I counted nine answers or elements of answers that were totally unknown to me, and a few others that were just vague memories. Having said that, I have to acknowledge that the clues were fair. I was able to parse everything except DANCER and, like many others, NINETY (thanks, Eileen, and yes it was a great clue). I did enjoy it, although more on the completion than during the solve, so thanks to Puck for that, and thanks also for dropping in to comment.

40. Not quite up to Puck’s usual brilliance, but superb nevertheless, and, for me, hard. I’m not keen on musicals, but it’s just one of those general knowledge areas you need if you want to complete crosswords. Only slight annoyance for me was that my daughter put on a track from Dear Evan Hansen at the precise moment I was working the clue through. In my book even the slightest help – whether a glance at a dictionary, or a quick Google – means a DNF. So should I count this as DNF? Thanks Puck.

41. Having had to take to my bed with a sore throat and headache I realise I may have been a tad harsh in my initial assessment of this as the worst puzzle ever 🙂 Still too much Google and guesswork for my liking but there were some excellent clues too. Cheers

42. Thanks Puck and Eileen

    Not for me, I’m afraid – themes (game shows as well, to some extent) which I know very little about. I guessed and checked 7 answers. 24a favourite.

    Puck has graciously acknowledged the error in 28a. I thought it was just lazy to deine bird as “flyer”.

    I raised an eye brow at SYRINGA too, as I thought mock orange was Philadelphus. However Google found a species – Philadelphus lewisii – that has “syringa” as one of its common names.

43. Thanks both,
    ‘Strophe’ was a new word to me but my reading suggests that choruses in Greek drama did not always sing their poetry. It seems unfair to clue an obscure word with a loose definition even if the anagram fodder is obvious.

44. I think all the musicals are fair game except maybe Dear Evan Hansen, which is pretty obscure. Rent has probably not lodged in the public memory but at the time it was one of the shows that if people loved it, they really loved it. Hamilton and wicked, whilst they both count as new(ish) both received a lot of publicity when opening and subsequently.

    A knobkerrie, by the way, is the weapon of choice of the Flying Swan’s temporary barman, Neville, in Robert Rankin’s Brentford Trilogy (ten volumes so far).

45. Ok.  So firstly I’m in the camp that really enjoyed this, even though I didn’t know DEAR EVAN HANSEN and had to check SYRINGA.  So thanks to Puck and Eileen.

    One minor quibble with the blog.  In 18a surely UN is indicated by ‘a French’?   With DER still as ‘German Article’.

46. Well, I much enjoyed this so thanks Puck and Eileen. I was briefly sidetracked by the possibility of “dream” in 23a, and also thought it was a great clue.

     

    [grantinfreo @22 Your (cross purposes) quip put me in mind of this Medical Problem]

47. I knew all the musicals, but neither of the TV shows, although both of those answers were clued fairly enough that they went in easily. I also hadn’t heard of the DANCER in question.

    DEAR EVAN HANSEN isn’t obscure at all, just extremely recent. It’s the latest flavor over here; it was just set to start its Chicago run when the theaters got shut down for the virus. All of my friends who are musical geeks are enthusiastic about it.

    It is nice to see so many relatively recent musicals. HAIR is the only one here that was written before my birth, and the only other chestnut is CATS. WICKED, HAMILTON, and DEAR EVAN HANSEN are still in their first Broadway runs (well, they were when the theaters closed).

48. I meant this one

49. Hornbeam @45 – you’re right: that was careless. I’ll amend it now.

50. Thank you to Puck and Eileen. Slightly obscure in parts, but nevertheless enjoyable.

    10, 26 was an unknown to me.  Can anyone remember what they were?

    Ah -found a sort of explanation here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNWjSmA2OqM (starts after the advert)…

51. Especially in these times, a distraction that lasts longer than usual is very welcome. Bloody hate musicals, which made it more of a challenge. Once all the crossers were in I invented a musical called DEAR EVAN HANSEN and it was true. Missed the PERCH. Remebered KNOBKERRIE from somewhere. John Buchan? Thanks Puck, and Eileen as always. Keep the hard ones coming.

52. Well, I loved it. Several people seem to be confusing “obscure things” with “things that I don’t know about”. All of the musicals featured have won the Tony or Olivier Award (or both)(apart from Wicked), and if it hadn’t been for the lockdown Dear Evan Hansen would currently be following Hamilton in selling out the West End at £150 a ticket. And not just very popular, but very well crafted. Seems deserving of a crossword theme to me. Thanks for the refreshment, Puck.

53. I’d question the Marmite analogy, simply because no-one can possibly detest Marmite as much as I detest musicals (even as a kid watching Disney films I could not understand why the story stopped for an awful song). So, yes – a theme that immediately put a damper on things. I soldiered on, but then there was too much GK needed. Ironically, I only knew Rent and Hamilton from the one game show I do watch (Pointless (which also features musicals far too often for my liking)). Glad some folks enjoyed it, but really wasn’t my cup of tea.

54. I thought this was a well-written puzzle by Puck.  I’m happy to see almost any new themes given an airing, even if they don’t correspond with my particular tastes.  Most of the musicals here are pretty well-known, except maybe 2/13.  Pity about Aukgate.  Perhaps, for the surface, “Former tweeter reporting dull conversation” would work.  No doubt some encyclopedia somewhere will say Auks never tweeted though.

    I liked STORYLINES, NINETY and DANCER the most.

    Thanks, Puck for dropping in and Eileen for the blog with helpful links.

55. Struggled. 2dn & 11ac guessed incorrectly. Last time I heard knob used in this context was in 50s/60s.

56. Van Winkle @52 – it’s my own fault, but I avoid Musicals. It’s one of the few genres I genuinely hate with a passion. It doesn’t matter how good they are, it doesn’t matter if they have won awards or not – I simply have zero interest in them, and therefore do not expose myself to any media that would cover them (other than the odd TV game show as I mentioned in my previous post). This doesn’t take any effort on my part. People seem to think it’s impossible not to have heard of popular things – be it famous musicals, pop stars, Hollywood movies etc. – but it’s actually incredibly easy to be completely oblivious to them – you just avoid media that mentions them.

    I think one of the issues I have with musicals is that they are an accepted art form. We’re expected to know about them, even though clearly, some folk (like me) have no truck with them at all. Yet something I do like – say, science fiction novels – are not an accepted art form, and so very few people would be expected to know them – even award-winning ones (I would argue that Kurt Vonnegut’s Sirens Of Titan is a more worthwhile piece of art than any musical ever created, for example – but no-one is expected to know about it, whereas everyone is expected to know at least a dozen musicals, including apparently “Dear Evan Hansen”). So I have to put up with crosswords with the theme I hate, but will never get one with the theme I like, just because that’s the way it is.

    The good thing about crosswords however is that there will be another one along tomorrow, that will probably be more to my liking.

57. I enjoyed FAG END, and thought DIVAGATE charmingly daft. As for the theme: I like musicals, me – but then I also like marmite (& vegemite, for that matter). Loesser, Sondheim, Gershwin, Berlin, Kander & Ebb, even bits of Lord L-W – bring it on! Once CATS, LES MIS, WICKED and HAIR had coalesced, I figured we were in “West End hits” country – but then DEAR EVAN HANSEN emerged. Ah. I’m guessing Puck had seen it and it stuck in his/her memory. Which, from reading the comments, is more than can be said for most of us. Normally, with Frightfully Obscure New Words wot I glean from crosswords, I make a determined effort to work them into a future conversation. Granted, it may take a while for KNOBKERRIE, and even longer for STROPHE, but the spirit’s willing. Having just looked up Dear E H, however, I’ll give that one a miss. Hey ho, two outta three ain’t bad…
    Thank you Eileen for an entertaining blog and thanks to Puck for giving me a knotty challenge during a heavy thunderstorm.

58. MarkN @53: Lol. My wife has the same view on musicals. Personally I think some are OK if the songs are a decent contribution, such as S. of M. and Oliver.

59. MarkN @53

    Al Stewart does a tribute to the Sirens of Titan on Modern Times.

60. Thanks Dave E, Marienkarfer and muffin for the links…amusing and enriching…so it goes..

61. Too clever by three quarters

62. MarkN @56 – hope Puck spots the challenge and takes it on. All for more recognition that things can be art even if they were created in the last 100 years. But still puzzled as to why some, unlike yourself, seem to be suggesting the puzzle was unfair because of gaps in their own cultural knowledge. Similar feelings to when there was an Avengers themed crossword at the time they were selling 10 trillion cinema tickets and this was claimed to be wilful esoterica.

63. Wellbeck@56 – Just a note to appreciate your entertaining comment (I also thought DIVAGATE charmingly daft, now you mention it). Unfortunately there aren’t ‘Like’ buttons here, as there are on Facebook!

64. I think DIVAGATE means “digress” not “rarely digress” as the blog suggests. I read the “rarely” as a reference to its
    obscurity.

65. [We took our daughter to see Cats when she was about 10. My verdict was “it would have been OK without all the singing and dancing”.]

66. grantinfreo @22. My favourite memory of The Glums is: ‘Oh Ron! I love the way you run your fingers through my hair. Are you trying to drive me crazy?’ ‘No Eth, I’m looking for my chewing gum.’

    Happy Days!

67. MarkN @56 You’ve pretty much summed up my view on musicals. I had to grit my teeth and gird my loins. My GK is usually quite good, and it came to my rescue with EIGHT OUT OF TEN CATS, although I had no idea what it was. But DEAR EVAN HANSEN? Really? And it’s clued with an anagram? I got as far as DEAR (though it could as well have been NEAR or SEAR for all I knew) before giving up. I didn’t write in NINETY as I couldn’t parse it, so thanks to Eileen for confirming that. TRENT was beyond me, too, and as I don’t watch TV very much, TENABLE was from another universe altogether.

    Thanks also to Puck for joining us here and owning up to the GREAT AUK boob. I knew it was flightless, but the clue was otherwise faultless, so I barely hesitated before writing it in. (I’ve a friend who tends to transfer final Ts to the start of the next word, so the homophone worked for me.) If you’re still hovering, Puck, how about some Kurt Vonnegut or Philip K Dick titles for a future crossword? (I did enjoy DIVAGATE and SYRINGA, btw.)

68. Yep, Van Winkle, I put my hand up for enjoying (yes, that is an active verb (pardon the tautology)) a certain cultural snobbery…a tribal thing, I think. Like, when I was enjoying Oklahoma at the flicks, aged 10, I was with cousins, taken by rellies; my own ma and pa (who wouldn’t have been seen dead..) were at the concert hall hearing Schubert liede. I try to be ecumenical.

    Btw, Rip VW was a very favourite story when I was a kid. I loved how he dreamed that the sound of thunder was made by balls in a bowling alley… or was it vv…

69. Well, I enjoyed it.  I didn’t know the Evan musical or some of the others, but that’s often the case.  I can live with that and enjoy teasing them out.

    Eileen — your link takes us to “winter nelis pea,” which probably doesn’t exist, but seems to have a Wikipedia entry anyway.  I googled “winter pear,” which I didn’t know was a thing, and found pictures of half a dozen pears.  Some of them I’ve eaten, including the one called “winter nelis pear,”  which I’ve never heard of.  Am I the only one?

    I didn’t understand Eileen’s words about number one haircuts — how can it be related to the original length of your hair?  I googled that too and found a treasure trove of terms for male haircuts.  A number one gives you hair 1/8” long, and refers to the setting of the clippers.

    WICKED — it’s common usage here, especially in Maine, that something can be “wicked good,” “wicked cold” or whatever.

    Gillian @10 The clue says “newspaper initially,” so it’s not N for newspaper.

    Welcome, wonderstevie.  Don’t be a stranger.

     

70. Having spent a fruitless 5 mins searching for musicals with the word ‘heaven’ in the title in a vain attempt to solve the anagram’Dear Evan Hansen’ I decided this just wasn’t for me and threw in the towel. Pfff…..

71. Valentine @69

    Hah! – that seems to be because I corrected my typo [NERIS] in the blog, in response to ngaiolaurenson @2 – so it’s been wrong all day.  Thanks for pointing it out, This is the link I gave originally.

    As for ‘No.1’ – I found that definition on Google [I don’t know about such things] but I can’t find it now. 😉

72. I find all the negative reaction today quite strange.  Quite a lot of it seems to be on the basis that people (intensely!) dislike musicals.  How does that make it a bad crossword?  A few months ago (28,049) Puck gave us a theme of real-life murderers.  I did actually think that was in rather poor taste, but it didn’t get anything like this level of criticism on the grounds that people don’t like murders!

    I thought today’s was tough but enjoyable (with a bit of electronic assistance).  My favourite was the queasy sea dog at 23a.  And I always enjoy a “-gate” clue like 1d.

    Many thanks Puck and Eileen.

73. Barbers have various clippers that they can use, rather like changing the height on the lawn mower. No.1 is the lowest.

74. Re 8ac [me @71]: for the record, I’ve amended the link on the blog.

75. Thanks, Eileen, for the parse of ninety, which would have been my clue of the day if I’d sussed how it works. And thanks to Puck for dropping in. I wasn’t too bothered about the auk because [wikipedia] “The great auk was never observed and described by modern scientists during its existence and is only known from the accounts of laymen, such as sailors, so its behaviour is not well known and difficult to reconstruct.” So maybe it occasionally took a littler flutter, like chickens do… As for the musicals, I hate cricket too, but have no objection to setters slipping in the occasional reference. And, when there’s a theme that’s out of my comfort zone, I’m quite happy to think “Aha, this is one where I’m going to have to look things up!” My dad was a biochemist, and when I was a young lad getting frustrated with the endless details we were encouraged to memorise in physics and chemistry, he once told me “Once you’re doing it in the real world, the secret isn’t knowing stuff; it’s knowing where to look it up.” I heartily concur, although I sometimes wonder if doing crosswords qualifies as “the real world.”

76. I was another who couldn’t parse NINETY, so thank you Eileen.  The best I could come up with was that if you were doing 90 on a motorway, that would be ‘somewhat excessive’.

    And like so many I’d never heard of 2/13d, but unlike so many failed to work it out.  In the end I put DEAR EVAN HINNES – and kicked myself on seeing the solution.

    Nihilominus (I’ve been waiting to work that one in), thanks to Puck – I did like the FAG END, the HAIRCUTS and the aeronautically challenged GREAT AUK – and the fact that, for a musical-themed crossword, he managed to evite the inevitable Evita.

77. essexboy @76

    I never pretended that nihilominus was an English adverb – but thanks for the smiles. 😉

78. I really don’t like musicals.
    [the two I’ve seen (Sunny Afternoon and All Or Nothing) can hardly be described as such]
    Yet this was a classy puzzle, I thought (we thought, actually).

    The only one that didn’t ring some bells was the long one at 2,13.
    We almost got it from the anagram fodder, except that we overlooked the ‘one-off’ bit (apparently just like essexboy)
    It took a while to see the trick in 22d (NINETY) – one should do more FT puzzles.
    Whether a ‘former flyer’ or a flightless one, we took GREAT AUK (28ac) to be just a bird.
    And so no problem finding it.
    Perhaps, the nicest clue was 19, 9, 26 – simple but elegant.

    Off topic, great to see muffin @59 mentioning Al Stewart’s album Modern Times, a firm favourite in the Seventies.
    Many thanks to Eileen for an, um, marmite blog & Puck for what we thought was fun.

79. First, a word of advice:  DO NOT go see Dear Evan Hansen! For some reason the show is wildly popular but I saw it on Broadway and hated every single character including Evan.  The entire plot rests on an action of Evan’s that is to me completely implausible, and if not implausible, then detestable.

    Anyway – like everyone else it seems, I found this extremely difficult what with all the very obscure words, but it didn’t put me off for some reason. I guess I’m just in a good mood today. Or maybe even a punishing puzzle is better than listening to a certain troll-haired tinpot dictator spewing vitriolic nonsense. We’ll see if the good mood holds up tomorrow.

80. Wow – that was a toughie; had to admit defeat with about 5 answers unfilled…

81. If you can’t say anything positive best to say nothing-

    Goodnight!

82. For me, musicals are not a Marmite experience – some, mainly the older ones, are life-enhancing classics, but I’m not tempted by more recent, and probably very loud, examples. So, having now learned of DEAR JOHN HANSEN, I won’t be booking for it, even when (if) doors open again.

    None of the other musicals were overly obscure, and I found this a perfectly fair and very enjoyable crossword. I can’t get exercised over the non-flying AUK – not a hanging offence, and worth it for the laugh when I realised.

    Thanks to Puck and Eileen – particularly for the explanation of NINETY, which was very clever.

83. Van Winkle @62 – I’ll happily sit this one out, as I said – hoping for something that appeals more next.

    My post was about the fact that it is expected that you know about these awful West End Shows full of dreadful songs that I wouldn’t use as torture for my worst enemy (showtunes are some of the worst music ever created – IMO, obvs). These are considered essential general knowledge apparently. That’s the problem. The tiny bit I know about them is a waste of perfectly good memory that could be used for something I actually care about.

    I mean – nobody in crossword-land is expected to know anything about films particularly – apart from ET (obvs). But Musicals pop up all the time. Evita, Cats and Hair are regulars, but they’re a niche part of theatre. Whereas the entire history of cinema barely gets a mention. I’d have more chance with that, and wouldn’t instantly switch into hate mode.

    I’m happy with the odd crossword to be Musical themed if I also get the odd crossword that is Sci-fi themed. This never happens though.

84. Eileen @61 Now I can’t find the very informative haircut Wiki page I had either.

    You “winter neris pea” link was up for over eight hours without anybody commenting on it, on this page where I almost always think, about every idea I have, “somebody else will have commented on that by now.”  I also can’t find the page your original link went to, though I tried googling “winter neris pea,” which is what it said at the top of the page.  It’s probably gone back to the Brigadoon of google pages — I wonder what other mysterious things are there?

85. G larsen @82

    You’re being very generous. If anyone had heard of the Great Auk, they would know two things about them:

    1 They’re extinct

    2 They were flightless!

86. Lord Jim @72 re: “Quite a lot of it seems to be on the basis that people (intensely!) dislike musicals.  How does that make it a bad crossword? ”

    It doesn’t make it a bad crossword. It just means it doesn’t fit for a lot of people. I’ve been doing crosswords for over 30 years now. There are 3 main things that I struggle with – 1 is musicals, another is opera, the 3rd is religion. Oh, and poets. 4. Four things. I have no interest at all in these things. I know I will never have any interest in these things. They are a waste of my limited brain capacity which I could use for things I genuinely care about. The odd clue on these topics I can deal with (just like I’d expect other folk to deal with the odd clue about cricket, or classical literature etc.). This was more than the odd clue – it was a theme. On something I consider to be massively over-represented.

    People only know about musicals because people have been subjected to musicals by people who care. The actual market is much smaller than the knowledge-base. Likewise Opera – the number of people who actually like the stuff is vanishingly-small compared to the number of people who actually know about it. And most of them only know about it because they want to finish the crossword.

87. I loved this although I didn’t know all the musicals beforehand, so had to Google and see what fitted. But for me really most enjoyable. Thank you to Puck and Eileen.

88. I’d been hoping for a Puck puzzle for a couple of weeks as I think he’s a brilliantly original setter. This one was a lot tougher than I was expecting and it took until today for WINE LIST TENABLE and HAIRCUTS to go in which just left the unknown 2d. I had googled musicals and DEH isn’t in the top 100 according to a poll so I came here with this unsolved despite having the fodder. I also didn’t parse NINETY. Many thanks to Puck for the puzzle and comment and to Eileen for the blog. Maybe another ISB themed puzzle would be more up my street!

89. Peter Aspinwall (@81): I usually agree with your comments but I think you are very wrong here.

    I think 225 would get rather sickly if all you were allowed to do was praise.

    Furthermore, it hardly encourages inexperienced solvers if they come here and find that EVERYONE thought the crossword enjoyable and straightforward.

90. I’ll just add that although I’ve been nigh on 50 years delighting in Guardian crosswords (albeit mostly uncompleted) and consider myself ‘Intermediate level’, I still get some encouragement when I see that in addition to those who find certain puzzles a delight from start to finish, there are those who found it an unsatisfying slog. That’s the beauty of the variety of setters and solvers we get  in the Guardian.

     

     

91. Thanks for the mention Pedro,I was being sarcastic however!

92. Ah, alright Peter, I can see that now. Cheers.

93. I finally gave up on this one this morning. Left blank were 23d and 27a, the latter because I had carelessly written in HANSON. Rather than Marmite, I’m going for curate’s egg. Although I’d never heard the word, my favourite was DIVAGATE. I was another who failed to parse NINETY but I hope that trick is now firmly lodged in my brain (like THRIPS from another day). Thanks Puck and Eileen.

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