Guardian Cryptic 28,161 by Brummie

82 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,161 by Brummie”

1. There is the GASLIGHT SYMPHONY (a band) and the DARK SYMPHONY as well

2. I only spotted the theme after reading your blog, Loonapick, so don�t beat yourself up too much. Nice and gentle solve; I frequently struggle to get on Brummie�s wavelength but no such problem today.

3. TOY is a symphony too

4. The theme should have rung fortissimo in my ears but I still managed to miss it until pointed out in comments. I must have been dozy this morning as it took a while to get into the puzzle, but, once there, I found it most enjoyable.

   Thanks to Brummie and loonapick.

5. Please add ‘bear’ to the list of symphonies.

6. Quite enjoyable, I thought, and not too taxing until I got caught up on the ULULATE/TOY/NAYSAYER trio. I was looking for a five letter politician to take ER out of. Didn’t know ‘snicker’ is equivalent to ‘neigh’, so the first half of that went unparsed, and I had to do a full alphabet trawl before ULULATE leapt out at me. I quite liked SUN BEAR when I got my head out of the Thai/Malay/Lao mode. The unusual construction of ENTHUSE was pretty neat. Is FLOP a place to sleep? I thought it was a flophouse, with ‘flop’ = ‘to sleep in USA’. But then what is ‘place’ doing? And why is Lambert = L? Still, I couldn’t see anything else it could be. (I suppose some symphonies were flops). Didn’t spot the theme. Thanks, Brummie and loonapick.

7. The �for� in 23a is as redundant (or meaningless, depending on your view) as they come. Still, mustn�t let cryptic grammar get in the way of a sparkling surf-…oh

8. TassieTim @6 Lambert (L) is a unit of measurement of luminance.� Fortunately for compilers there seems to be a unit of scientific or mathematical measurement for just about every letter of the alphabet!

9. Thanks Mark @8 for the explanation of Lambert. Not one I recognised. I also had no idea most of the symphonies existed, but it was a light theme in that they don’t help much when solving.

10. Thanks for a fine blog, loonapick.

    I enjoyed solving this puzzle and then there was the added pleasure of tracking down the theme words when I’d finished. [I didn’t spot the theme until near the end, from 6dn UNFINISHED.]

    I particularly liked 11ac OVERPRICED, 16ac ULULATE [I love this word: the Latin word it comes from was used by Virgil in the Aeneid to express the wailing of the Trojan women at the fall of Troy] and the little gem 26dn DOTH, with its reference to ‘the year dot’.

    Many thanks to Brummie for a very pleasant start to the day.

     

11. I enjoyed this solve but the theme went right over the top of my head – I honestly forgot to look for one, although I really should have twigged when I got 1d PASTORAL. Aside from UNFINISHED though, it is the only symphony from those highlighted and mentioned above that I know, so no wonder the penny didn’t even begin to drop for me. I am glad that I was in good company with those who also admitted to missing the connecting thread.

    Though I see your point re the “a” in 19d, loonapick, I still enjoyed the SURPRISE!�And beside 24a OPPROBRIUM, I wrote “lovely word”, not for its meaning but for its sound. I did have to look up SUN BEAR to confirm that it was a legitimate guess for 15/2d.

    Thanks to Brummie and loonapick.

12. Loved this but also did not spot the theme, which is now obvious, and might have helped. SUN BEAR took me to Google, as did SCIT as tax (Scot free: who knew?), and my unreconstructed geography knows Lake NYASA as Lake Malawi, and NYASA as the people who live near that lake, so I learned the other name. I assumed ‘wood furniture’ was a reference to the predominance of PINE in IKEA’s furniture so did not find ‘furniture’ superfluous. Thank you to Loobapick for OI as ‘I say’: I had all sorts of contortions trying to parse that. And of course many thanks to Bruumie.

13. *SCOT* as tax. Sorry…

14. [Thanks Eileen@10 for the reminder about the Trojan women – I love onomatopoeia!]

15. And *Loonapick*… Apologies.

16. Most annoyingly didn’t know of FLOP, so technically a DNF. Too many obscure, to me, symphony names to realise there was a musical theme today.

17. Enjoyed this puzzle. Finally completed one with no silly mistakes on my part. No idea about theme. Music is a weak spot for me. Thanks Brummie for a friendly but satisfying puzzle and loonapick for explaining the nay/neigh usage in 21ac which I failed to parse. Favourite was pastoral at 1d. LOI was flop, so many possible -L-P words!

18. The Toy, the Surprise and the Pastoral were among my personal records in the family LP library, and I still didn’t twig…talk about dense! Hey ho, pottered through happily oblivious, enjoying the surfaces, which I reckon were mostly very neat. 5d was a real transatlantic shuffle, from swell to fop and back again to flop[house]. And 6d was a nice misdirect.. looked like a Lego but wasn’t. Nothing too taxing though. Thanks Brummie and loonapick.

19. Missed the theme (of course!) but as ever it�s obvious now you say it. Loved the puzzle – nothing overly taxing so a good steady solve (I didn�t know Lake NYALA before and OPPROBRIUM needed a quick dictionary verification and spelling check but both clues entirely gettable from wordplay and a crosser or two). Lots to enjoy. I particularly liked ENTHUSE hidden in plain sight.

    Thanks loonapick and Brummie

20. I hadn’t come across the unit of Luminosity. Otherwise a bit ho hum I thought.

21. I enjoyed this a lot, getting a bit stuck at the end on TRAIPSE and SUN BEAR. Favourites were HEROIC and SURPRISE. Missed the theme as always. Many thanks to Brummie and loonapick.

22. Many lovely clues and a number of rather weak ones I thought. I agree about the superfluity of things like “furniture” and others mentioned. I thought equating tory to politician was weak too – only a small fraction of tories are actually politicians. Ditto “go-ahead” for “modern” was tenuous. “sun bear” is one of those crossword pieces of GK – I think I’ve solved it three times in the past year and still have no idea what it is, other than an Asian animal!

    On “lambert” I think going for non-SI and uncommon units is a sign of desperation! It’s one of those abbreviations that exists so the setter can use it, rather than being used by anyone. It’s not even uniquely abbreviation as L.

    I’m not sure how “traipse” and “gad about” equate – one is to move reluctantly, the other with pleasure.

    I had “flambeau” instead of “gaslight” at first, which held me up. Flam for talk and beau as in “he’s a fair/beau laddie”.

    I really liked “mammon”, “ululate”, “enthuse” and “overpriced” and plenty of others tickled my fancy. Thank you Brummie and loonapick.

23. …and the Eroica has always been a favourite, too (love the slow movement). Back of my mind was vaguely thinking Scot, Wallace, ben…perhaps? And Dark Star…some gamers’ thing? So well done for the diversions, Brummie, intentional or not…

24. Oh dear! As a musician I didn�t even spot the symphony connection until I read this blog!
    Still it was a quick and enjoyable solve. I agree that there is a bear symphony by Haydn who also wrote the sun string quartets.
    No opprobrium from me! Thanks Brummie and Loonapick.

25. Very enjoyable.� Favourite was probably 3d HEROIC both for its nice surface – Cher is popular with setters! – and for the “I say” for OI, which do indeed mean the same though perhaps they’re likely to be used by different speakers…

    I also really liked 26d DOTH, very clever and neat.� (The definition “does ancient” reminded me of the “the ancient” discussion on the blog for the Brendan prize a week or so ago.)

    (Dark Star (26, 10) is a 1970s science fiction comedy film, made on a shoestring but very funny.)

    Many thanks Brummie and loonapick.

26. If Strauss called the ‘Alpine’ a symphony, who are we to say it’s not? There are plenty of single-movement symphonies, if that’s the ‘technical’ problem. The ‘Bear’ is Haydn’s No. 82. I racked my brains for a ‘Sun’ symphony but could only manage the ‘Sun’ Quartets of Haydn (Op. 20).

27. I recently made the leap from Quiptic to Cryptic and found this quite challenging!

    My favourites were TRAGIC and ULULATE.

    Put CLAP instead of FLOP, thinking about ocean swells 🙁

28. Haven’t read comments, having an appointment, so sorry if I’m duplicating. Sun (for a different reason), Toy and Bear need highlighting as well. I do like TheZed’s suggestion of FLAMBEAU – brilliant.

29. Lord Jim @25 Thanks for reminding me of Dark Star.� I agree it’s very amusing and have always loved the song Benson, Arizona as a result.� Believe it or not, Alien was somewhat inspired by the alien on board.

    Dark Star is also the title of a fine piece of music by The Grateful Dead – one of their classics.

30. OK so it wasn’t perfect but made for a fine start to another sunny day in God’s Own County.

    Faves were NAYSAYER and ULULATE (thx for the classical reference Eileen). BTW was Mammon actually a god?

    Saw the obvious themesters but rapidly reached the limits of my ignorance. When DARK STAR revealed itself thought aha Grateful Dead but nothing doing.

    Thanks to B+L

    [Reminds me how many great musicians we have lost recently. The wonderful Keith Tippett just the latest.

    Was Dark Symphony ever put to music?
    See also the Langton Hughes Rivers poem heard as part of a BLM themed radio prog]

31. Sorry Mark we crossed! There are so many live Dead albums there must be hundreds of versions. For me it’s always the first Live Dead.

32. Thanks Brummie and loonapick

    I didn’t find this easy – reading the clues in order, SCOTTISH was my first entry. Like TassieTim I though the place to sleep was a “flophouse”.

    I got DOTH almosr by accident, as with the crossers I thought “ancient history starts” was a reference to “the year dot”.

    OVERPRICED my favourite too – I do like a neat anagram.

33. Thanks for the blog and the parsing of OI, which eluded me. FWIW Dar Star is a very funny spoof scifi film by John Carpenter, watch it if you haven’t seen it. Thank you for observing all safety precautions …

34. Suspected the theme with TOY, UNFINISHED and PASTORAL but decided that wasn’t enough for a theme until coming here.�Doh!

    Thanks to loonapick and others for picking out the rest.

35. Thanks for the explanations loonapick, and to those above for various contributions on Lamberts, ululation, the Grateful Dead and more. I thought this was a mixed bag with some dodgy elements eg to my mind Traipse <> gad about, as TheZed noted, and some surfaces not too smooth, but despite my knowledge of classical music being decidedly 6D i got there and enjoyed plenty along the way. Enjoyed 7D, spent a while trying to think of a politican called TERRY before coming to my senses for 17D and favourite 26D would have taken a lot longer if something� similar vintage wasn’t fresh in my mind from yesterday. Thanks Brummie.

36. Well I missed the theme despite being fond of classical music… d’oh. Lots to like, including DOTH, MAMMON and OVERPRICED. Thanks Eileen for the classical titbit; yes, JinA onomatopoeia rocks. And like you Tassie Tim, I was looking for a politician called TOYER!
    Thanks to Brummie for the fun and to Loonapick for the blog.

37. BlueCanary @31 When you throw in all the bootlegs that are out there, it’ll run into the thousands!� (off topic for the crossword but a quick personal reminiscence: I was fortunate to see the GD play at Wembley Arena in about 1990.� Their last visit to the UK and Jerry G died not long afterwards.� Made my way to my seat to find we were prevented from seeing the stage by the forest of microphones erected by the home tapers (remember those days?).� A bit disappointed.� Then a passing steward enquired if we were home tapers ourselves.� On learning that we weren’t he said “You don’t want to be here, then.� You can’t see anything.� Come with me…” and escorted us to the third row from the front and a couple of vacant seats.� Three hours of heaven!)

    BTW remiss of me not to thank Brummie and loonapick earlier for their efforts.

38. Found this difficult. Missed the theme.

    Felt sad thinking of the plight of the sun bear in Southeast Asia.

    Failed BEAN, FLOP.

    New: Lake Nyasa.

39. Ah that’s my kind of theme – absolutely no knowledge of it required to complete the crossword 🙂 Faves were OVERPRICED, NYASA and OPPROBRIUM. Honorable mention for SURPRISED as it took me a weirdly long time even after I’d figured out the SLURP trick. Cheers all

40. Mark @8. Thanks for the enlightenment [!] on Lambert – and me a science teacher. Mind you, since it is not an SI unit, I wouldn’t have any use for it anyway.

41. Thanks to Brummie and loonapick, both for the puzzle and the blog.
    Day two of the week, and again I�ve found myself with some spare time. A really quite rapid solve, with nothing needing help with parsing.
    Fave for me was ENTHUSE, which I smiled at, as did OVERPRICED.
    Didn�t look for a theme, but I wouldn�t have got it anyway, my musical tastes lying in a completely different genre. Only musical reference I saw was DARK STAR, being the final album by the legend that was David Bowie RIP.
    The grid screamed NINA, but quickly died a death, virtually immediately! Ho hum!

42. I do like your succinct comments Michelle.

     

43. [Wormhole and rock landscape, Mark and BlueCanary, from the Dead,to Tippett, to Jools to Dylan (Wheels on ..) and Donovan (Season of..)! Great memories, ta]

44. Pedro @42

    thank you

    I was unable to write much because the image of those terribly cruel bear bile “farms” (more like torture camps) got stuck in my head after solving the clue about sun bears 🙁

    Anyone who does not know about it can google bear bile farming and look at the images. It makes me very sad.

45. Personally, I would very much like the Overpriced Symphony to be a thing….

    Answers kept popping into the grid at regular intervals, which is always encouraging. Enjoyed pulling ULULATE out from the recesses of my brain. Disappointed that 28a wasn�t some outrageous alternative definition. A pleasant rather than outstanding solve, I reckon.

46. Dryll @41 the Bowie album is called Blackstar – I thought the same until I looked for it online 🙂

47. [I bought Blackstar. Not a relaxing listen; my daughter – a long-time Bowie fan – described as sounding like giraffes fighting…]

48. Re: DARK STAR – also a song by CSN.

49. Grateful Dead trivia time…

    They played Dark Star 233 documented times between late 1967 and March 30 1994. Recordings are available of most if not all of them (I have over 200!).

    Mark @ 37: it was nearly 5 years later that Jerry Garcia, in August 1995.

    And I really like Bowie�s Blackstar. Amazing to think that he kew he was dying while making it.

    Thanks Brummie and loonapick

50. I missed the theme. I thought this was rather patchy. Nice setting to get in all the themed material and I enjoyed many clues like the one for OVERPRICED. There were a few lapses with cryptic grammar though, most especially as Bingybing @7 pointed out the misleading ‘for’.

    Thanks Michelle @44 for pointing out the revolting bear bile farming – I didn’t know about that.

    Thanks Brummie and loonapick (what’s the derivation of your handle?)

51. So far this week is shaping up to be a counterbalance to last week’s collection, good puzzles all but a bit above my pay grade. I thought this one was easy but none the worse for that. I agree with some of the quibbles noted above, but I raised an eyebrow only at the extraneous ‘furniture’ and ‘flop’ instead of ‘flophouse,’ and there were several neat constructions to admire. NYASA was unknown to me, but gettable once I stopped looking for _SALA from ‘western half of Salt Lake.’ Thanks, Brummie.

    Missed the theme, of course,so thanks to loonapick and previous commenters for adding to the enjoyment.

52. Thanks to muffin & michelle for joining me in the “found this hard” club today. I had trouble getting on the right wavelength at first, with only the obvious (to me) NYASA on first pass, then the anagram at 11a. Partly this is because of what, to me anyway, were very smooth surfaces (pace Bingybing @7); even without Ikea (Beobachterin @12) I think furniture is fine in 22d.

    Should have looked for a theme (as it is Brummie…), which would have given me TOY; also failed to get 21a (I didn’t think snicker was the same as neigh, but Chambers confirms it). Strange to see GASLIGHT in its original meaning, after seeing it everywhere recently referring to psychological manipulation.

    [Dark Star is a brewery btw.]

     

53. This was slap bang in the middle of my Goldilocks zone so much appreciated. The occasional weakness such as SUN BEAR was balanced by nice little clues eg DOTH. But theme? Never thought to look, nor did it leap out, despite having listened to most of those listed, including the ALPINE. Mea culpa.

54. Enjoyed this one, but not sure of the link between Go-ahead and Modern?

55. I’d forgotten to look for a theme and,while I don’t know all the symphonies that have now emerged,I should have got it by the more obvious ones that I do know. Still,the puzzle was straightforward enough and could be completed without knowledge of the theme.
    DARK STAR emerged late in the proceedings and I couldn’t see any other Grateful Dead references. For those keen on Garcia et al,I would recommend GREYFOLDED put together by John Oswald.
    Thanks Brummie.
    P.s. I thought Bowie’s BLACK STAR was a splendid album.

56. I wonder if anyone would be willing to explain to me:

    -what the “coming round” is doing in 3 (or, alternatively, the “fancy”- are there two anagrinds?)

    -why the question mark in 20

    Thanks, Brummie and Loonapick.

     

57. Mendelssohn Scottish. Did anyone mention that?

58. tuliporturnip @56. “Coming round” means that OI is surrounded by HER__C (“fancy” version of CHER).

    Can’t help you with the question mark in 20 – the clue works fine for me without it.

59. After reading the recent above comments I turned on the “radio” (app that streams music) and Black Star was playing.� The mathematician in me knows how to understand coincidences like that, but it really seemed freaky!

60. Annoyed with myself for not spotting the theme; I’ve played in all these symphonies except the BEAR. Got held up by trying various endings to GOSSIP in 14a. Didn’t know of the unfortunate SUN BEAR. Loved ENTHUSE. Thanks Brummie and Loonapick

61. [Unfinished business on yesterday’s Vulcan blog, where David still appears to be awaiting an apology.]

62. I missed yesterday’s puzzle, but I picked up today’s and was delighted (1) to spot a theme and (2) to find that it was right up my street.� I am familiar with these symphonies except for the Alpine, and I note what has been said above about this one.

    Thanks to both Brummie and Loonapick.

63. [Alan B @62

    Strauss’s Alpine is in my top five symphonies, so I suggest you give it a try. It requires an enormous orchestra, incuding wind machine and thunder sheet – think Hoffnung’s Symphony Orchestra!]

64. A steady solve with FAREWELL, TRAGIC, and ULULATE being favorites. I missed DOTH — that might have been a favorite as well. Not sure if I’ve seen “settlement” as an anagrind before but I’m quickly learning that many, many words seem to be fair game for anagram indicators. Thanks Loonapick for parsing — “Scot” as an outdated tax is new to me. Thanks Brummie for the fun.

65. FOI, TRAIPSE.
    NOH, SUN BEAR
    COD,MAMMON.

66. Pretty sure we had Scot as an obsolete tax not long ago, for that reason it was my SOI (after 13). After those it took a long time to get on Brummie’s wavelength, but once I did (and spotted the theme) everything fell into place more quickly than expected, leaving me an afternoon at work with nothing to do but work (the horror…) Thanks to Brummie and Loonapick.

67. [muffin @63
    If the symphony is as amazing as the artwork via your link I must give it a try. Thanks for the tip.]

68. Tan Coul@66:

    I think SCOT turned up in a recent Maskerade offering.� Maybe at Easter? One of those big ones.

69. [Alan @67

    It is, perhaps, a little self-indulgent, but the sound-world is amazing.

    For the record:

    1 Mahler 2

    2 VW 5

    3 Alpine

    4 Sibelius 5

    5 Mahler 3 or 4?

    I somtimes try to compile a list of my favourite symphonies by number – Mahler features quite a lot!]]

70. Attempted this one due to shenanigans (accidentally opened this one instead of Monday’s cryptic and didn’t notice until I had finished – I’m way below the necessary skill level for the rest of the Guardian’s cryptics). Had to do a lot of guessing and checking. I thought SUN BEAR was fine; I didn’t understand mountain peak = BEN (google suggests Ben Nevis) or how MODERN = ‘go-ahead’. I parsed 23a as MODERN=a type of ‘style’, with mode=service and rn=’right now’= go-ahead, though both are admittedly very flimsy parsings.

    Words:
    Characters:

71. Khitty Hawk @70

    “Ben” is a common name for a Scottish peak – there are lots and lots.

72. Khitty Hawk @70 I thought “ben” a bit odd at first as I associate it with “mountain” as in many, many mountains in Scotland, not just the tallest. However, it can also refer explicitly to the peak or top as well as the mountain itself. I was thrown by that as it is not an association I normally make.

73. Dark Star were also a band. Memorable line ‘Jesus was my age when he got nailed’.
    Thanks Brummie and loonapick.

74. Thanks both.
    I was undone by ‘doth’, inserting a lazy ‘date’ instead. One of the definitions of ‘flop’ in OED is ‘bed, place to sleep’ supported by several citations.

75. Enjoyable puzzle. Thank you Brummie and Loonapick Although obvious in retrospect, I used a word search for SCOTTISH and NAYSAYER. Didn’t spot the theme of course, although PASTORAL and UNFINISHED should have given the game away.
    NYASA took me back to my school days in the early sixties, when every few lessons the geography teacher “Basher” Bates would intone:
    “Take out your atlas”
    “Find Nyasaland” (say)
    “Neatly cross out Nyasaland and write in Malawi”

76. Beethoven�s isn�t the only PASTORAL Symphony – Vaughan Williams� 3rd is also known by that title. I

77. Thanks to loonapick and Brummie

    How does putting either “over” or “about” before a word reverse it?

78. Dansar @77

    I think the answer is that word order in clues is becoming more liberal these days.� I take it you are querying just the positioning of those words and not the absence of the implied word ‘turned’ in both those examples.

    A similar usage that has now become established (I think) is a construction like ‘A B holds’ (where A and B can be any nouns, let’s say), meaning B holds or contains A.

    I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with these trends (hoping I’ve described them correctly) – I just try and keep up!

79. Alan B, the difference, though, is that �A B holds� can easily be taken as �A that B holds�.
    And that �about A� or �over A� is just that. What it says on the tin.

    When I solved this crossword, which on the whole was enjoyable and which gave me a d�j� vu as to its theme, I had the same raised eyebrows as Dansar.
    We�ll have to get used to that, I�m afraid.
    Years ago someone put a question mark to a clue from a Monk puzzle that was of the form �A about B�.
    With �about� either an anagram or a reversal indicator, don�t know precisely anymore.
    The clue was allegedly ambiguous.
    I clearly remember the setter replying along the lines of �No it�s not. Only �about� behind the fodder means something to me�.
    And I actually agree.

80. Many thanks, Brummie – and Loonapick.

    An interesting demonstration of how a puzzle need not be fiendish in order to be very enjoyable to solve

81. Sil @79
    Thank you for your thoughts on this mini-debate. I don’t have much problem with the current more flexible usage of ‘over’ and ‘about’ (I said liberal earlier).

82. Loved DOTH, didn’t like Lambert and surprised that bears can survive on the sun.
    Thanks Brummie and Loonapick.

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