Guardian Cryptic 28,209 by Brummie

67 comments on “Guardian Cryptic 28,209 by Brummie”

1. Thanks Brummie and manehi

   A chemistry theme! It made a fairly easy solve. Only slight hold-up was early on entering SAKI (also hidden) at 23d, and thinking “I’ll check later if H.H.Munro was from Isleworth”. In fact, rather to my surprise, I found he was brought up in Barnstaple, where I’m from.

2. I’m early for a change!
   Enjoyed it. Don’t think I’ve had cause to use or even come across the word BURETTE since O Level Chemistry many, many years ago.
   Thanks to B and M.

3. Struggled a bit with this one from Brummie.  I was convinced 11ac was asking me to insert something into ‘tool’ which meant I didn’t see the obvious!  TOASTING defeated me; I just wasn’t on the wavelength and the ‘toast’ element wouldn’t drop, even with the crossers.  And the ‘several times’ element of 24ac had me looking to remove either ‘t’ or ‘x’ from something.  I’m not sure why it’s there.  Would “once removed” had done as well?

   Otherwise, some super clues and devices throughout.  And a theme that’s hard to miss.  Part chemistry in general and part Dalton-specific.  I believe he’s particularly known for his work on gases and atomic theory.  ANTIMONY, MOLECULAR, GECKO, MINK WRAP and PHASE earned ticks but COTD is/was GASES for the two misdirecting examples.

   One raised eyebrow: I’m not sure ‘hum’ and ‘sing’ mean the same to me.  Humming is generally wordless isn’t it?  Singing, I associate with words.  Singers can produce wordless sounds, for sure, but I see that as the voice as an instrument rather than specifically singing.  I’m sure others here will clarify this.

   Thanks Brummie and manehi

4. Counting test tube as one, I make it 17 chemical answers;  any advance on that?

5. Thank you to Brummie for an enjoyable crossword with a theme with even this famed non-notice of themes couldn’t miss

   Thanks also to Manehi

6. I found it a bit harder than yesterday’s; it took me a little while to get going, but the obvious chemistry theme helped. I also wondered if 23d was SAKI and  did not know that a NOBLE is a type of gold coin.

   Thanks Brummie and manehi.

7. I was right back to the chemilabs at school with this, could almost smell the reek of hydrogen sulphide again. Lots to like, thanks Brummie…

8. I meant to say that Darwen (Lancashire) would have been closer to Dalton’s actual birthplace (Eaglesfield, Cumbria) than Darwin, Australia!

9. Some clues were write-ins but others caused me to struggle, as I wasn’t on Brummie’s wavelength. And I only spotted the theme with 2 or 3 clues remaining, so that was no help to me. Overall I enjoyed it – some inventive clues. However, isn’t it time Eli was pensioned off?

   Thanks Brummie and manehi.

10. I got the theme nice ‘n’ early (TEST TUBE and POTASSIUM being almost write-ins) which meant it was a great help with a number of guess-first-parse-later answers. Often I find the short answers trickier, but here, for example, having got GASES, I found myself seeking out somewhere to put NOBLE….
    [All the more satisfying, since my school chemistry education came to an abrupt end after I accidentally caused a smallish explosion during a lunch-break experiment. I must have muddled my mixtures, for there was a sudden flash of light – and I found myself on the ground on the other side of the workbench. Other than singeing my eyebrows there was no great harm – but it was gently suggested that I might switch to Biology instead….]
    Thanks to Manehi for the blog and Brummie for a cracking crossword

11. Thank you to Brummie for an interesting chemistry theme and to manehi for the explanatory blog.

    I have to say I didn’t enjoy this much. I thought many of the surfaces read very unevenly – e.g. 10a ‘K’ is wrestling with Pat (sumo), 16a Talk drugs, mustard and marsh, say?, 4d Iris affected with bust and shoulder inflammation, 12d All right at start of cruise, for example, to go around the Lizard?, and 17d ‘To the bride’, perhaps, in German (Browning). I read those and thought they were rather laboured clues. Now as I have retyped them, they strike me as groups of words that really have no flow. I always feel bad about being critical, as I have tried to set cryptic clues at times in the past and mine end up clunky too. But today I just felt there were too many surfaces that read badly.

    However, others seem to have liked the puzzle, so I am obviously overly sensitive in terms of the need to have the surfaces make some kind of sense.

    I have to say I did like solving 18a BORDELLO.

12. Togs @4 I spotted only 14 POTASSIUM, HELIUM, ACID, ALCOHOL, NOBLE, DALTON, TEST TUBE, ANTIMONY, BURETTE, ATOM, GASES, MOLECULAR, PERIOD, COMPOUND. What am I missing?
    Anyway nice and easy, thanks Brummie and manehi.

13. BURETTE and POTASSIUM were early and that was enough to be on the lookout for a theme. This doesn’t happen often, at least for me! It didn’t always help; my chemistry knowledge is pretty good, but A level is many decades in the past and sometimes the memory leads me down the wrong alley. Was there an ‘astamine’ in the 20dic table, for 13a? No, that was astatine, no good given HELIUM. But Sb eventually filtered through.

    On balance though, because of the theme, I felt this was one of the more straightforward Brummies of recent times, a setter who often gives me trouble. It was pretty good stuff throughout. In 10a, a smoother surface would have been ”K’ is sumo wrestling with Pat’ , but that’s my only cavil.

14. Pleasant enough solve but perhaps a tad lacklustre.

    Anyone else remember that little plastic stencil used for drawing items like BURETTEs and retorts for chemistry homework?

    Many thanks both.

15. I’m tickled by the answers that don’t fit the theme.  I hope Bordello and Golf Club don’t tell us more than we needed to know about Brummie’s lockdown activities 😉

16. P.S. Mark@3, I agree with your comment regarding “hum” and “sing” in 5d HELIUM. That was my concern about that clue.

    I am just a bit concerned that some contributors’ enjoyment of the theme and memories of chemistry classes in their youth have made them less critical of some of the clues offered here. Please tell me if I am off the mark in terms of my concerns regarding some of the surfaces, as expressed above. Could it be that a few of my negative experiences with Senior Chemistry have coloured my reception of this puzzle?

    But “It’s probably not good to eat nasty people with a utensil” strikes me as yet another very ???? surface.

17. Very nice. Getting 17 themed answers in is quite something.

18. At last a theme for the scientifically literate among us – and, I hope, relatively solvable (soluble?) by those to whom chemistry is not elementary. Alas I am with JinA in that the majority of the surfaces here were gobbledegook. Unfortunately it meant very few were ever distracting enough to make me think about anything other than the cryptic grammar, which made it a quick solve. I think the German bride held me up a while and my LOI was “stage broadcast worry” which reads more like a “what3words” map address than anything else (turns out it is – near Gondar in Ethiopia!

    Thanks Manehi for the blog – all straightforward, though I hoped to find why the cousin was several times removed only to discover it wasn’t.

19. The theme made this a quick and unremarkable solve as the chemical references were practically write-ins. I thought 5D and 16A the weakest surfaces but liked BURSITIS, BORDELLO and MINK WRAP.

    Tog @4 have you included these possible inclusions in the chemical theme:  ”GUAGE chemistry” is a branch of quantum physics, COUNTER could be Geiger’s used with radiochemistry.  COUPLE is also a chemical term in as much as coupling takes place between pairs of electrons due to their spin.

20. Yes, Dalton goes all the way back to gravimetrics in the school lab and the beginnings of atomic theory (pace ..er ..who was it…Democritus?). Liked the counterpoint of cola and alcohol, and the one who came to bury Caesar with I’m inside, and the spread butter, and the sumo wrestler. Lots of fun balancing the equations, ta Brummie and Manehi.

21. Mark @3: humming/”singing” of power lines, perhaps?

    I sympathise with JinA/TheZed regarding the surfaces, but the clue for TOADSTOOL somehow appealed; not sure why, maybe it was the thought that cannibalism is probably not a good idea, but that any objection might be overcome by avoiding the use of cutlery…

    Thanks Brummie and manehi.

22. Digbydavies @12  PHASE takes it to 15.  The other two are possibly more tenuous, maybe those I mentioned above.

23. Digbydavies @12 : PHASE and COUPLE, and I also included GAUGE but on reflection that is marginal.

24. A difficult one for me.

    Liked: ATOM.

    New: BURSITIS, John DALTON.

    I see that I did not parse GASES properly.

    Failed ALCOHOL. I had entered ALCO/POP but could not parse POP.

     

    Thanks Brummie and manehi.

25. I liked the doorbell / BORDELLO anagram in 18a, though on checking I see that it has been done before, eg Vulcan 27,837.

    JinA @11 and 16: I agree that a couple of the surfaces seemed a bit nonsensical, but of those you mention, I think that 4d and 12d make sense if you take Iris as a woman’s name (rather than part of an eye) in the former, and the Lizard as the Cornish peninsula in the latter.

    keyser soze @9: you can’t get rid of “priest” = ELI!  It’s a great crossword tradition, like “model” = T.  (Though one oldie I would like to see the back of is “banker” = river – as I’ve said on previous occasions it just doesn’t make sense.)

    Thanks Brummie and manehi.

26. I enjoyed the theme today, and it did help us with a few answers.

    JinA @16 – you might be onto something there. However, I did not enjoy chemistry at school, I was just happy to have spotted the theme early on!

    Favourites were MOLECULAR and TOASTING.

    Thanks Brummie and manehi!

27. As an erstwhile chemist, I loved this. There is so little science in public discourse. (Read C P Snow’s The Two Cultures. Nothing has changed!)

    Thanks to manehi and even more to Brummie.

28. Spotted the theme early, and it helped with a few. But it didn’t help with the one I failed on: IN FOCUS. Like Mark @3, even after I had to reveal, I could not work out what “several times” was doing there. Trying to make sense of that certainly interfered with my thinking.  That apart, I did enjoy this. Some of the surfaces were a bit clunky, but I am of the school that delights in lovely surfaces, but doesn’t worry if they don’t make a lot of sense. Thanks, Brummie

29. essexboy @21: the only response I can think of is hmmmmmmm!

30. Auriga @27 – CP Snow is indeed a hero proving yet-again that the line between art and science is totally false.  Strangers and Brothers had a huge impact on me when I read it age 18 and continues to do so 30+ years later.

    Having said this, FOI was TEST TUBE followed by BORDELLO (make your own connection; I couldn’t possibly comment) and this was technically a DNF for me today but I’m putting that down to the extreme heat.

    Thanks Brummie and Manehi for exercising the fuzzy-logic a little this morning!

     

     

    Thanks Brummie and manehi.

31. Well I guess I’ll flaunt my 40 year old chemistry degree and bid at a remarkable 18 themed clues. Gauge (as in gauge pressure) sneaks in for me.

    ALCOHOL
    BURETTE
    POTASSIUM
    GAUGE
    ANTIMONY
    ACID
    GASES
    TEST TUBE
    PHASE
    MOLECULAR
    COUNTER (as in Geiger or counter-ion)
    COMPOUND
    COUPLE
    HELIUM
    ATOM
    NOBLE
    DALTON
    PERIOD

    Thanks to Brummie and Manehi

32. I failed this one like I failed chemistry at school. I couldn’t wait to give it up. I had three which I couldn’t see GOLF CLUB, GASES and IN FOCUS. Once I revealed GASES the other two gave themselves up. So a bit of a disappointment and I can see where others are coming from regarding the clunkiness of some of the clues.
    Thanks for the blog Manehi and to Brummie for defeating me.

33. [Lord Jim@25, I remain open to defence of any of those clues I cited. No idea that the Cornish peninsula is called “The Lizard”. As a sailor myself, I did wonder if “cruise …round the Lizard” was some kind of reference to navigation in your part of the world. I’m sorry that on the other hand I still don’t buy your defence of Iris as a proper noun in 4d. That clue is still clunky, from my perspective]

34. Tim @31

    Can you count NOBLE and GASES separately? I can’t think of a “noble” in chemistry except with “gases”. (There was a Nobel chemist, of course!)

35. JinA is spot-on.  The struggle should be in UNseeing the surfaces!

    I normally really like themed puzzles, but today it made it too easy, imo.

36. Brummie is frequently criticised for his surfaces.

37. Despite several clunky clues, some of them earning that description on account of their surfaces (as JinA and The Zed also commented), I enjoyed the Chemistry theme and found the puzzle as a whole quite straightforward.
    In the clue for IN FOCUS, I too thought the phrase ‘several times removed’ was a strange way to indicate an anagram, and I don’t really get it.
    Thanks to Brummie and manehi.

38. A pleasantly nostalgic reminder of A-level chemistry, but with too many rather awkwardly contrived clues for my liking. I also don’t see the need for “several times” in 24Ac except to connect with “cousin” and make the clue sound more sensible.

    [DALTON investigated colour blindness. It seems there are people who can’t tell red from green: they’re called cyclists. Musical references: BLUR, Dutch yodelling with FOCUS and of course GECKO & the Bunnymen.]

39. Muffin @34 you can have noble metals too so I think it’s fair. At least i didn’t split “test” and “tube” : )

40. I was too sleepy last night to fill in a good deal of the grid, and this morning I needed the check button to confirm or contradict some of my guesses, but it was fun.  Thank you Brummie and manehi.

41. As an ex-Chemistry teacher, I whistled through this in double-quick time. I’m sure it’s been done before, but the BORDELLO/DOORBELL anagram tickled me. I also enjoyed ANTIMONY and GASES.

42. Thanks Brummie for a themed crossword even though my favourites were the non-chemical answers like BLUR (great band), GECKO (Lizard Point is stunning), and PERIOD. Thanks Manehi for parsing; I don’t understand how “fruit” = “gage.”

43. Tony @42

    Greengages (a sort of plum) are often referred to as just “gages”.

44. Tim @31 – there is a certain kind of chemistry in a BORDELLO.   Jus’ sayin’…

45. 2Scotcheggs@38 Gecko and the Bunnymen!
    I think I may have seen them in their early days supporting the Skinks. I was also thinking Dutch prog rockers and their tribute band, I Can’t Believe It’s Not Focus.

46. Sailed through this, not even stopping to notice the theme, until I got to the last two. Then GAUGE was a pure guess, one of only three or four words that would fit, and I had to reveal IN FOCUS (managed to parse it afterward and was a bit miffed that ‘several times,’ which I had spent so much time puzzling over, was actually irrelevant). There were several clues that I did like, and unlike JinA, I thought the surface for TOADSTOOLS was amusing. Thanks to Brummie and manehi.

47. Tony @42 (and muffin @43): if you’ve never tasted a greengage and get the opportunity to, do take it.  muffin’s right – they’re a sort of plum – but that description does them a disservice.  Liquid honey, dripping gold, mellifluous (!).  But not easy to get them to fruit regularly: I inherited a tree on my allotment and the first summer awaited with excitement the turning of green to purple that normally signifies a plum’s ripening.  But they stayed obstinately golden green whilst everybody else’s were clearly ripening.  And then they began to fall!  At which point, I tried tasting one and then realised they weren’t plums but greengages.  Lucky us.  That was three summers ago and they haven’t fruited since!

48. Re 24a: Not just any anagram. All the letters of COUSIN are in different positions in the (part) answer IN (F)OCUS. Several times removed!

49. The theme was so obvious that I’m astonished that I didn’t see it but I didn’t. This was an odd puzzle with some being write ins- including POTASSIUM and others which took some time- TOASTING and PERIOD. LOI was BLUR.
    Despite the above, I did like TOASTING.
    Thanks Brummie.

50. Greensward @48: not sure I understand your point. Not just any anagram. All the letters of cousin are in different positions… Isn’t that the definition of an anagram?

51. Mark @50 I think what is meant is that if you write the words one above another:

    CO(F)USIN
    IN(F)OCUS

    there are no “coincidences”. By contrast, another anagram:
    BORDELLO
    DOORBELL

    one “L” and one “O” are in the same place.

52. Thank you TheZed @51. That is exactly what I meant.

53. Thanks brummie and manehi. I enjoyed today despite falling two short including the previously discussed 24a.

    My take is that ‘several times removed’ is a better anagrind than many that pass more regularly without comment. I think it describes accurately enough what you have to do to the letters.

54. What greensward @48 (and TheZed @51) have pointed out is that INOCUS is what is called a derangement of the letters of COUSIN (a permutation of the letters with no fixed point). Of the 720 possible anagrams of ‘cousin,’ 265 are derangements, so they are by no means rare. I doubt that Brummie intended to call attention to it, and I’m still not happy with ‘several times.’

55. Thanks all for explanation. I think DaveinNC sums up my ongoing feelings: “still not happy with ‘several times’”. But it was my only real quibble and neither prevented solution nor marred enjoyment.

56. As a chemist, I loved it. COUPLE is also encountered in chemistry in, for example, zinc/copper couple, a reagent used in several reactions.
    Muffin, Pentman et al: by using NOBEL for 14, Brummie could have added another themer PHIAL for 20a. Impressive list of themers in any case.
    JinA and others, I think the criticism of the surfaces is a little harsh today. They mostly seem ok to me. Personal reaction, of course.
    Thanks, Brum and manehi.

57. Surprisingly disproportionate (see what I did there?) number of chemists amongst us – I include myself.

58. muffin @57: a compound of chemists?  A fermentation of chemists?  An experiment? …

59. Mark

    It has to be a Group of chemists, surely?

60. muffin @43, Mark @47 Thanks, another penny to add to my memory bank.

61. I had GRASS instead of GASES for 16ac, which I think almost works. Two definitions to begin with, and then I think that marsh grass and mustard grass are both things. Admittedly there are some singular-plural issues — the second definition and the marsh-and-mustard part both work better as pointers to GRASSES. Still, I was confident enough about it, especially since two crossers match, that I had to use the “check” button to reveal the problem when I couldn’t make 11dn work. And I couldn’t manage to spot COUNTER, although it’s not a hard clue in retrospect. Not my day, I guess.

62. Also had grass which made toadstool my LOI. Liked the theme.

63. JinA et al:

    The surfaces concerned me not.
    The examples Julie in Australasia gives do not constitute an argument. To damn a great surface such as 12ac is unfair. (As stated by other(s), Lizard Point is a famed part of Cornwall and not rarefied knowledge). Same with others mentioned.
    I find it a shame when an opinion based on a false premise can fuel prejudice against a crossword, in both the opiner and those who follow.
    This is generally a kind site. Some voice their personal sadness here and receive comfort. Others rush to defend great setters from unjustified criticism.
    Personally, a nice surface (particularly if witty or provocative) can help make a good clue/puzzle into a great one. But, if I’m looking for great literature, other destinations would beckon.

64. WFP @63
    Concerning 12d GECKO, my opinion of that clue is probably the same as yours. Lizard Point is often referred to as ‘the Lizard’, and the mental image of sailing round the Lizard gave that clue a great surface. But you need to read JinA’s later comment @33 to understand her re-take on that clue after learning our local knowledge.

65. Regarding @63/64 above, I agree this is generally a kind site – and I’ve always found JinA’s posts admirable exemplars of that spirit of kindness.  Even on those rare occasions when she voices criticism, she certainly doesn’t “damn”.  There’s hardly a contributor on this site who is more consistently courteous to setters, bloggers and fellow solvers.

66. Muffin, there are also noble metals though I still would not claim that noble was a term in general. My qualifications are an A level in chemistry a bit over 40 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_metal

67. 24A.  The letters are moved, I don’t see how they are re-moved.  And several times?

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